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Old July 1 2013, 02:08 AM   #256
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Mr Light wrote: View Post
You think the 90s Spider-Man is better than Spectacular Spider-Man? I had a great deal of nostalgia for it, but I rewatched it a few years ago and forgot how kiddie it was... or that Spider-Man wasn't allowed to punch anybody
Yes, the violence was toned down, but violence does not equal maturity -- just the opposite, really.

Spectacular was excellent, but I never warmed to its character designs. The '90s show at its best had absolutely gorgeous animation from Tokyo Movie Shinsha, the best animation studio in Japan, although unfortunately the quality fell over time as the budget was slashed. And yes, sometimes the writing was corny, but then, so was Stan Lee's. I feel the '90s show did the best job of capturing the flavor and style of the original comics, both their sophisticated character writing and their cheesy melodrama and wild action. I also loved its rich orchestral music, and it had great casting.

The '90s show also deserves credit for handling the Alien Costume/Venom storyline better than the comics did. The third movie's version was based directly on what the animated series did, with the costume changing Peter's personality and making him more dangerous rather than just taking him out on patrol while he slept and draining his energy.
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Old July 2 2013, 12:12 AM   #257
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

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The episode descriptions sound interesting. I definately plan to give the show a chance. I can ignore the sub par design if the story is good.
I don't think the design per se is a problem; sure, Batman's new look will take some getting used to, but the same went for his B:TAS design. I feel that Glen Murakami is one of the best visual/character designers working in animation today. My problem is more with the execution of those designs, the choice to realize them in 3D rather than 2D ink-and-paint style. I'm not convinced that's going to work very well.


I just hope it doesn't go completely obscure with the villains. I like stuff like that, but I'd also like to see the classic villains at times.
Well, that depends on what you consider obscure, I suppose. If you only know Batman villains from TV and movies, then most of the villains here will be completely new. But a lot of them are characters who have had a significant presence in the comics without ever having been portrayed onscreen before, like the Pyg and Toad characters who were pretty major in Grant Morrison's run in recent years.

Besides, sometimes obscure villains can be reinvented in ways that make them breakout stars -- the archetypal case being Mr. Freeze, a bottom-of-the-barrel minor villain that B:TAS gave a new lease on life to. Maybe you could make a case for the Clock King as well. That's the cool thing about adaptations -- they give you a chance to try new variations on old ideas, and sometimes you find great untapped potential in an obscure character.
I know some obscure Batman villains. Still, I have no desire to have Batman fight villains like Magpie, Professor Pyg (who I loathe, but thats just because of some very bad grant Morrison Batman comics, I suppose he could win me back by being actually interesting on the show), Ten Eyed Man, Polka Dot Man, KGBeast, Cluemaster, Maxie Zeus, Crazy Quilt (not totally a Batman villain, but close enough), Doctor Phosphorus, Film Freak, etc every week.

I love obscure Superhero stuff when its done right (Batman: Brave and the Bold is an awesome show, and did some interesting things with a lot of obscure people) but for a more serious Batman show I wouldn't want an endless parade of supervillains that are obscure because, honestly, they suck, atleast in general. B:TAS did some interesting things with some obscure villains (like Clock King) but it didn't have some kind of gimmick where it relied on only obscure villains most people have never heard of (and for good reason).

B:TAS was also just a generally awesome show with great people working on it. This is a CGI cartoon that has none of the people I associate with great DC animation working on it. I guess (looking at the small crew section on wikipedia) Executive Producer Sam Register worked on teen titans, which I enjoyed, but that means nothing when it comes to Batman. One of the writers worked on Young Justice, which is a very good thing, but this seems to be a completely different show. Don't get me wrong, I want to like Beware the Batman when it comes to TV. I just hope the whole "obscure villain" thing is not actually a thing, just a coincidence that the first few episodes have bizarre villains. If not, I don't know. I'll totally admit that if someone like Bruce Timm or Paul Dini had their names on the show I'd have a lot more faith in it, but these guys are going to have to work very hard to make it interesting. I hope they do, but I'm expecting something closer to average or mediocre. I hope to be proven wrong, and I can easily see myself being won over by the show, but my expectations are not very high at this point.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr Light wrote: View Post
You think the 90s Spider-Man is better than Spectacular Spider-Man? I had a great deal of nostalgia for it, but I rewatched it a few years ago and forgot how kiddie it was... or that Spider-Man wasn't allowed to punch anybody

Yes, the violence was toned down, but violence does not equal maturity -- just the opposite, really.

Spectacular was excellent, but I never warmed to its character designs. The '90s show at its best had absolutely gorgeous animation from Tokyo Movie Shinsha, the best animation studio in Japan, although unfortunately the quality fell over time as the budget was slashed. And yes, sometimes the writing was corny, but then, so was Stan Lee's. I feel the '90s show did the best job of capturing the flavor and style of the original comics, both their sophisticated character writing and their cheesy melodrama and wild action. I also loved its rich orchestral music, and it had great casting.


The '90s show also deserves credit for handling the Alien Costume/Venom storyline better than the comics did. The third movie's version was based directly on what the animated series did, with the costume changing Peter's personality and making him more dangerous rather than just taking him out on patrol while he slept and draining his energy.

I loved the 90's Spider-man (It needs a full DVD release. If X-men could get one, why not Spidey?). I could not get into Spectacular at all. Its art style was just really cheap looking. It looked like some random, cheap disney cartoon with Spidey. Maybe it was good, maybe it wasn't. I doubt I'll watch it. That said, it is literally impossible for it to be worse than the current Spider-Man cartoon, so if nothing else thats something nice I can say about it.
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Old July 2 2013, 04:18 AM   #258
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I love obscure Superhero stuff when its done right (Batman: Brave and the Bold is an awesome show, and did some interesting things with a lot of obscure people) but for a more serious Batman show I wouldn't want an endless parade of supervillains that are obscure because, honestly, they suck, atleast in general. B:TAS did some interesting things with some obscure villains (like Clock King) but it didn't have some kind of gimmick where it relied on only obscure villains most people have never heard of (and for good reason).
I don't see how it's a gimmick. We've seen countless stories with the familiar villains by this point. Why wouldn't the creators of this show want to explore new possibilities, new characters? Why is it bad to try to do something that hasn't been done before? I can't begin to understand that attitude.

And like I said, just because characters suck in the comics doesn't mean they can't be reinvented into something far more interesting. Mr. Freeze sucked until Paul Dini came along. Deadshot was a lame, one-time Silver Age Batman villain, but then Steve Englehart totally reinvented him in the '70s and the Suicide Squad comic transformed him into a rich, fan-favorite character. A character's past failure doesn't preclude future success.


B:TAS was also just a generally awesome show with great people working on it. This is a CGI cartoon that has none of the people I associate with great DC animation working on it.
Those are contradictory statements. Glen Murakami, one of the creators/showrunners of BtB, worked as a character designer on every core B:TAS series (i.e. everything but Static Shock and The Zeta Project), as well as a storyboard artist on B:TAS, a producer on Superman: TAS, Batman Beyond, and Justice League, and a producer and co-writer on Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.


I guess (looking at the small crew section on wikipedia) Executive Producer Sam Register worked on teen titans, which I enjoyed, but that means nothing when it comes to Batman. One of the writers worked on Young Justice, which is a very good thing, but this seems to be a completely different show.
Register is the executive VP of Warner Bros. Animation. He's been executive producer of pretty much everything they've done for nearly a decade now.

The head writer will be Mitch Watson, who was previously showrunner on Scooby-Doo: Mystery Incorporated, which was a wildly creative, fresh, offbeat, often surprisingly dark and deconstructive take on the Scooby franchise -- not so different from Brave and the Bold's approach to Batman in some respects. I'm looking forward to seeing what Watson brings to the writing.


Don't get me wrong, I want to like Beware the Batman when it comes to TV. I just hope the whole "obscure villain" thing is not actually a thing, just a coincidence that the first few episodes have bizarre villains.
It is not. They want to avoid repeating what previous shows have already done over and over, to establish their own identity with new characters before they start bringing in the familiar ones. If you'll recall, both prior Batman series did much the same thing. The Batman used a lot of the same villains, but didn't bring in Commissioner Gordon until season 3, focusing on different police characters. The Brave and the Bold didn't use the Joker until halfway through the first season, and sparingly thereafter. And other major characters like Robin, Catwoman, Superman, and Wonder Woman also didn't appear until relatively late in the series (although there were rights issues in the latter two cases).



I loved the 90's Spider-man (It needs a full DVD release. If X-men could get one, why not Spidey?).
The whole series was available for streaming on Netflix until yesterday, so I would've thought it was all available on disc too. But apparently it isn't, at least not on Netflix, which is strange. It looks like the first two seasons may be available for streaming on Amazon Prime, but I'm not sure.


I could not get into Spectacular at all. Its art style was just really cheap looking. It looked like some random, cheap disney cartoon with Spidey.
Now, that's most unfair. Just because an artist's design style isn't to our personal taste, that doesn't mean he lacks talent or that the people responsible for executing his designs are lazy or cheap. I didn't care for Sean "Cheeks" Galloway's character design style for Spectacular, but that's just a difference of taste. The actual animation was superb, particularly on the action sequences.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:21 PM   #259
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Christopher wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I love obscure Superhero stuff when its done right (Batman: Brave and the Bold is an awesome show, and did some interesting things with a lot of obscure people) but for a more serious Batman show I wouldn't want an endless parade of supervillains that are obscure because, honestly, they suck, atleast in general. B:TAS did some interesting things with some obscure villains (like Clock King) but it didn't have some kind of gimmick where it relied on only obscure villains most people have never heard of (and for good reason).
I don't see how it's a gimmick. We've seen countless stories with the familiar villains by this point. Why wouldn't the creators of this show want to explore new possibilities, new characters? Why is it bad to try to do something that hasn't been done before? I can't begin to understand that attitude.

And like I said, just because characters suck in the comics doesn't mean they can't be reinvented into something far more interesting. Mr. Freeze sucked until Paul Dini came along. Deadshot was a lame, one-time Silver Age Batman villain, but then Steve Englehart totally reinvented him in the '70s and the Suicide Squad comic transformed him into a rich, fan-favorite character. A character's past failure doesn't preclude future success.
Mr. Freeze is not Mr. Toad, Professor Pyg, or Magpie. He had potential, even if it wasn't revealed until B:TAS. Batman has fought a lot of lame villains over his existence. There is a reason some endured and became popular, and some mostly dissapperared, and I doubt this show will be making Magpie or Mr. Toad relevant.

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B:TAS was also just a generally awesome show with great people working on it. This is a CGI cartoon that has none of the people I associate with great DC animation working on it.
Those are contradictory statements. Glen Murakami, one of the creators/showrunners of BtB, worked as a character designer on every core B:TAS series (i.e. everything but Static Shock and The Zeta Project), as well as a storyboard artist on B:TAS, a producer on Superman: TAS, Batman Beyond, and Justice League, and a producer and co-writer on Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.
Well, I wish he was a character designer for this show, then I wasn't trying to say anything bad about people I didn't mention, I just don't know a lot of them. It sounds like he's done some good work. But, according to wikipedia, Murakami was a producer on The Batman/ That is the worst cartoon based off a DC superhero I've ever seen (and i've seen a lot of DC animated cartoons). That whole show was just horrible in basically every aspect. The character designs ranged from mediocre to downright aboinations (The Joker especially was so bad the designer should have been locked away) and the writing just plain sucked.


Honestly, just working on that show kind of takes away from anything else he's done. I loved a lot of the stuff you listed, but that show was just horrifyingly bad. Maybe he was just producer in name only, but it still makes me worried, since being associated with that show is basically the worst project any of these people could be associated with. I'd have less issues if you told me he was the "genius" behind teen Titans Go! Atleast that show had no chance of being good (its whole premise is just being Cartoon network comedy #4567). The Batman doesn't seem to have been arranged in the same way, at one point it must have had potential.


Christopher wrote: View Post
The head writer will be Mitch Watson, who was previously showrunner on Scooby-Doo: Mystery Incorporated, which was a wildly creative, fresh, offbeat, often surprisingly dark and deconstructive take on the Scooby franchise -- not so different from Brave and the Bold's approach to Batman in some respects. I'm looking forward to seeing what Watson brings to the writing.
Well, I don't watch Scooby-Doo, so I can't say anything about that. Its not really filling me with confidence if Scooby Doo is his most well known work, unless ace the bat Hound is a major character in Beware the batman and it just hasn't been announced. Still, this may lead to a batman/Blue Falcon & Dyno Mutt crossover, and I'd be all for that (it may sound stupid, but if BF & Dynomutt can make it onto Scooby Doo, Dexter's Lab and Harvey Birdman, they could make it to a CGI BM cartoon).

Christopher wrote: View Post
It is not. They want to avoid repeating what previous shows have already done over and over, to establish their own identity with new characters before they start bringing in the familiar ones. If you'll recall, both prior Batman series did much the same thing. The Batman used a lot of the same villains, but didn't bring in Commissioner Gordon until season 3, focusing on different police characters. The Brave and the Bold didn't use the Joker until halfway through the first season, and sparingly thereafter. And other major characters like Robin, Catwoman, Superman, and Wonder Woman also didn't appear until relatively late in the series (although there were rights issues in the latter two cases).
Well, you probably shouldn't use The Batman in an example, since that was easily the worst cartoon series with DC characters I've ever seen (as the above paragraph probably made obvious). As for B&TB, its a whole different show and concept. Its not really comparable it to Beware the Batman. It was fun and entertaining, and in general didn't take it self too seriously (although the few times it did, it did it well). Beware the Batman is trying to be a more normal superhero cartoon, just without compelling villains. There is a reason they're obscure. A lot of the obscure people were just lame ideas, and not very workable ones in some cases when it comes to serious tv shows. I want it to work, but this show will probably last about as long as GL:TAS and not be as entertaining (and this is coming from someone who was very disappointed and underwhelmed by GL). I want to be proven wrong, but I'm not going to be shocked if I'm not.

Christopher wrote: View Post

I could not get into Spectacular at all. Its art style was just really cheap looking. It looked like some random, cheap disney cartoon with Spidey.
Now, that's most unfair. Just because an artist's design style isn't to our personal taste, that doesn't mean he lacks talent or that the people responsible for executing his designs are lazy or cheap. I didn't care for Sean "Cheeks" Galloway's character design style for Spectacular, but that's just a difference of taste. The actual animation was superb, particularly on the action sequences.
It just looked cheap to me, like so many of the cartoons the various disney TV channels produce. I'm not saying someone didn't work hard on it, its just that its really simple and very unimpressive. I suppose its better than Teen Titans Go, but thats not an accomplishment. I'm looking at pics right now on google, and they are just so lame. Not that better designs mean anything from a story standpoint(Ultimate Spider-man is a horrible tV show, and it has decent designs) but spectacular SM's designs are just immediately off putting and make me not want to waste any time with the show. It could be awesome, but I can't get past the fact it looks like a generic disney cartoon.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:36 PM   #260
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

You can see the opening title sequence for the show at EW here.
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Old July 2 2013, 08:00 PM   #261
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

^Whoa, those opening titles are gorgeous. They looked more like really good 2D animation than 3D, and they reassured me that Murakami's gift for striking design and visuals is still very much in effect. I hope the show proper manages to do such interesting things with lighting and composition.

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Well, I wish he was a character designer for this show, then
Of course he is. It's Murakami's show, and he's chiefly an artist, so of course he's the main person responsible for every aspect of the show's design. He probably did do the core character designs himself, and is responsible for designing or at least approving the entire visual style of the series, in the same way that Bruce Timm was primarily responsible for the design style of B:TAS.


But, according to wikipedia, Murakami was a producer on The Batman/ That is the worst cartoon based off a DC superhero I've ever seen (and i've seen a lot of DC animated cartoons). That whole show was just horrible in basically every aspect. The character designs ranged from mediocre to downright aboinations (The Joker especially was so bad the designer should have been locked away) and the writing just plain sucked.
He was one of its producers in its first couple of seasons, but the head creators behind that show were Duane Capizzi on the writing side and Jeff Matsuda on the artistic side (the character designs were Matsuda's). Also executive producer Alan Burnett, who was one of the core creators behind B:TAS and several of its sequel series. At the time, Murakami was the showrunner on Teen Titans, so I'm not sure how big a role he could've had in producing TB.


Honestly, just working on that show kind of takes away from anything else he's done.
A lot of the people who worked on The Batman have done great work elsewhere, including executive producer Burnett, supervising producer Michael Goguen (who went on to direct a number of Brave and the Bold episodes), producer Linda Steiner (who also produced TB&TB), and writers including Steven Melching (TB&TB, The Clone Wars), Greg Weisman (Gargoyles, Spectacular Spider-Man, Young Justice), Stan Berkowitz (the '90s Spider-Man and most of the DCAU shows), and Joss Whedon veterans Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie.

I think you're being too harsh on The Batman. It was the weakest of the modern Batman shows, but it improved over time, and there were some really impressive episodes in its run. In particular, it had a Berkowitz-scripted Riddler origin episode that was much better -- and more B:TAS-like -- than B:TAS's own Riddler debut.


I'd have less issues if you told me he was the "genius" behind teen Titans Go! Atleast that show had no chance of being good (its whole premise is just being Cartoon network comedy #4567).
Glen Murakami was the head creator behind the original Teen Titans series, and is an associate producer of the new version as well, though it seems to be mainly Aaron Horvath & Michael Jelenic's show. (Horvath is a veteran of the MAD animated sketch-comedy show. Jelenic was a story editor on Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman and a producer on TB&TB and the recent Thundercats.)


Well, I don't watch Scooby-Doo, so I can't say anything about that. Its not really filling me with confidence if Scooby Doo is his most well known work, unless ace the bat Hound is a major character in Beware the batman and it just hasn't been announced.
Okay, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here. Basically Mystery Incorporated was Scooby-Doo a la The X-Files, with shades of Twin Peaks and H.P. Lovecraft, filtered through the comic sensibilities of Freakazoid! It was a smart, witty, satirical, visually bold, often surprisingly intense reinvention of the Scooby universe with strong characters and a rich mythology. It even had Harlan Ellison playing himself in a couple of episodes. It was Scooby-Doo for people who don't like Scooby-Doo, yet it was also a loving tribute to the tropes and conventions of the original. Regardless of the subject matter, it was a wildly creative and daring reinvention of its source material, and if Mitch Watson brings even half of that creativity and daring to Beware the Batman, then we are in for one hell of a roller-coaster ride.


As for B&TB, its a whole different show and concept. Its not really comparable it to Beware the Batman. It was fun and entertaining, and in general didn't take it self too seriously (although the few times it did, it did it well). Beware the Batman is trying to be a more normal superhero cartoon, just without compelling villains.
How do you know what it's trying to be? And how do you know the villains won't be compelling just because you aren't familiar with them? You're making a lot of very reckless and ill-informed assumptions.


There is a reason they're obscure.
I've already explained to you why that's a nonsensical attitude. Mr. Freeze was obscure, deservedly so, but then Paul Dini made him one of the best villains ever. You're wrong to assume that characters are trapped by what they've been in the past. Characters get reinvented all the time, and many great, beloved characters are reinventions of characters that were originally lame or uninteresting.


It just looked cheap to me, like so many of the cartoons the various disney TV channels produce. I'm not saying someone didn't work hard on it, its just that its really simple and very unimpressive.
Obviously this is a definition of "cheap" I'm unfamiliar with. "Cheap" means inexpensive, having little money put into it. Naturally Disney shows are not going to be money-starved. So you're not making a coherent point here.
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Old July 3 2013, 12:09 AM   #262
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

I absolutely love the opening titles!
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Old July 3 2013, 12:32 AM   #263
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

The opening titles weren't horrible, but they weren't impressive. The theme song itself isn't great.

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Whoa, those opening titles are gorgeous. They looked more like really good 2D animation than 3D, and they reassured me that Murakami's gift for striking design and visuals is still very much in effect. I hope the show proper manages to do such interesting things with lighting and composition.

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Well, I wish he was a character designer for this show, then

Of course he is. It's Murakami's show, and he's chiefly an artist, so of course he's the main person responsible for every aspect of the show's design. He probably did do the core character designs himself, and is responsible for designing or at least approving the entire visual style of the series, in the same way that Bruce Timm was primarily responsible for the design style of B:TAS.
Well, then I take it back. I wish Bruce Timm was the character designer. Well, ok, thats not totally fair. Murakami had to design characters to be made with fairly bad CGI animation, its not like they were going to come off looking good no matter who did the actualy designing.

Christopher wrote: View Post
But, according to wikipedia, Murakami was a producer on The Batman/ That is the worst cartoon based off a DC superhero I've ever seen (and i've seen a lot of DC animated cartoons). That whole show was just horrible in basically every aspect. The character designs ranged from mediocre to downright aboinations (The Joker especially was so bad the designer should have been locked away) and the writing just plain sucked.
He was one of its producers in its first couple of seasons, but the head creators behind that show were Duane Capizzi on the writing side and Jeff Matsuda on the artistic side (the character designs were Matsuda's). Also executive producer Alan Burnett, who was one of the core creators behind B:TAS and several of its sequel series. At the time, Murakami was the showrunner on Teen Titans, so I'm not sure how big a role he could've had in producing TB.
Well, hopefully it wasn't too much and we won't be getting any of the idiocy that was the batman in this show.

Christopher wrote: View Post
A lot of the people who worked on The Batman have done great work elsewhere, including executive producer Burnett, supervising producer Michael Goguen (who went on to direct a number of Brave and the Bold episodes), producer Linda Steiner (who also produced TB&TB), and writers including Steven Melching (TB&TB, The Clone Wars), Greg Weisman (Gargoyles, Spectacular Spider-Man, Young Justice), Stan Berkowitz (the '90s Spider-Man and most of the DCAU shows), and Joss Whedon veterans Jane Espenson and Douglas Petrie.

I think you're being too harsh on The Batman. It was the weakest of the modern Batman shows, but it improved over time, and there were some really impressive episodes in its run. In particular, it had a Berkowitz-scripted Riddler origin episode that was much better -- and more B:TAS-like -- than B:TAS's own Riddler debut.
Honestly, it was the weakest show based off DC characters I've seen that wasn't Superfriends (and atleast that could be entertainingly goofy). I suppose the only DC animated show I've seen nothing of, The Zeta Project, could be weaker, and honestly its premise is (I think it was a Batman beyond spinoff with characters I can't remember, even after watching all the seasons of BB) but besides that slight possibility, its hard to find a worse DC animated show than The batman, and I'm not convinced that one exists.


Christopher wrote: View Post
Glen Murakami was the head creator behind the original Teen Titans series, and is an associate producer of the new version as well, though it seems to be mainly Aaron Horvath & Michael Jelenic's show. (Horvath is a veteran of the MAD animated sketch-comedy show. Jelenic was a story editor on Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman and a producer on TB&TB and the recent Thundercats.)
I really like the original Teen Titans. TT Go! I really hate, and just hope it dies a quick death and is never mentioned again. Its actually kind of hard to compare TT Go and The batman. Objectively I think The BM is a worse show, but I hate TT Go! more because its horrible show thats taking advantage of the memory of a show I really enjoyed. I remember actually enjoying Jackie Chan Adventures, but its been years since I've seen it. TC didn't draw me in after two episodes, so I never watched more of it.



Christopher wrote: View Post
Okay, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here. Basically Mystery Incorporated was Scooby-Doo a la The X-Files, with shades of Twin Peaks and H.P. Lovecraft, filtered through the comic sensibilities of Freakazoid! It was a smart, witty, satirical, visually bold, often surprisingly intense reinvention of the Scooby universe with strong characters and a rich mythology. It even had Harlan Ellison playing himself in a couple of episodes. It was Scooby-Doo for people who don't like Scooby-Doo, yet it was also a loving tribute to the tropes and conventions of the original. Regardless of the subject matter, it was a wildly creative and daring reinvention of its source material, and if Mitch Watson brings even half of that creativity and daring to Beware the Batman, then we are in for one hell of a roller-coaster ride.
I wasn't trying to insult Mystery Incorporated. Its fine if you like it. I've seen about five minutes of it, and it was just Scooby Doo with an art style and character designs that just felt a bit off too me, compared to other versions of SD. It could be a fine show, I don't know. I haven't watched any Scooby Doo in awhile (although I've seen a fair amount of it over the years). I don't really know what you could do with it that would be any different than all of the shows before it, outside of making them chase actual ghosts, but a SD animated movie (Scooby Doo on Zombie Island) already did that, and while it was a decent movie I don't know if that would work for a whole series. I'm the last one to say anything about people enjoying various cartoons. I watch a lot of stuff that would be weird to people.

I think its a bit weird to see so much praise put on a franchise that can almost be used as a synonym for "formulaic", but I like a lot of the various versions of Power rangers, so I definately enjoy some formulaic stuff. The Harlan Ellison thing is really weird. I don't know why they'd have him play himself. How many Scooby Doo watchers know Ellison? I barely know him as the guy who was listed in the credits on a lot of B5 episodes, and the guy who wasn't happy about his Star Trek TOS script being changed, even though the changes I've read about seemed like neccessary changes (to be fair, i'm not a huge fan of City on the edge of Forever to begin with). I'm sure he's done a lot of great things (and contributed to a lot of the B5 stuff, and I really like B5) but he's a bizarre choice as a guest on Scooby Doo. Still, I have nothing against the show. I'm just saying that a guy who worked on scooby Doo would not be my first choice to work on a Batman TV show.



Christopher wrote: View Post
How do you know what it's trying to be? And how do you know the villains won't be compelling just because you aren't familiar with them? You're making a lot of very reckless and ill-informed assumptions.
Ok, fine. Its going to be a light hearted romp, in the style of TB&TB. Better yet, maybe it will be an outright comedy with basically no superhero stuff, like TT Go!. The dark imagery we've seen so far definately supports it not being a serious show. I'm not sure how I didn't make than connection before

Christopher wrote: View Post
There is a reason they're obscure.
I've already explained to you why that's a nonsensical attitude. Mr. Freeze was obscure, deservedly so, but then Paul Dini made him one of the best villains ever. You're wrong to assume that characters are trapped by what they've been in the past. Characters get reinvented all the time, and many great, beloved characters are reinventions of characters that were originally lame or uninteresting.
We're talking about Magpie, Professor Pyg, and Mr. Toad. The last one is just a ripoff from an old book, Magpie is just a bizarre looking villain, and Professor Pyg...will probably not be like the murdering character Grant Morrison used him as, but since I hated that, its fine with me. None of these three are big villain material. I don't know about Mr. Freeze or his history, because he's always been a major bat villain to me, but looking on wikipedia it was Paul Dini who helped make him relevant. Well, thats fine, but none of the people working on BTB are Paul Dini.

Besides, I'm not even sure Paul Dini could do anything with Pyg, Mr. Toad and Magpie (and I'm a HUGE Dini fan). They're just not particularly interesting, and I don't think this show will have near the writing talent to do anything with these characters that almost define uninteresting obscure villains. B:TAS did a lot of ground breaking things, but DC doesn't allow its shows to do that anymore. Its all strictly about toy sales, with story being about 97th on their list of things that are important to keep the show running. Young Justice was awesome, but got casually cancelled. If B:TAS was made today, it would last 13 episodes before getting cancelled for Batman Go!.

Christopher wrote: View Post
It just looked cheap to me, like so many of the cartoons the various disney TV channels produce. I'm not saying someone didn't work hard on it, its just that its really simple and very unimpressive.
Obviously this is a definition of "cheap" I'm unfamiliar with. "Cheap" means inexpensive, having little money put into it. Naturally Disney shows are not going to be money-starved. So you're not making a coherent point here.
I'm saying the designs are poor, that they look like very little money was put into them. Like they grabbed the first moderately talented art student they could find, handed him a $20 bill, and asked him to design some extremely kid friendly version of Spider-Man characters.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:14 AM   #264
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Objectively I think The BM is a worse show, but I hate TT Go! more because its horrible show thats taking advantage of the memory of a show I really enjoyed. I remember actually enjoying Jackie Chan Adventures, but its been years since I've seen it.
That just goes to show that you can't judge creators by a single show, because Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman were made by many of the same people. They both had Duane Capizzi and Michael Goguen as producers and Jeff Matsuda as head character designer.


I wasn't trying to insult Mystery Incorporated. Its fine if you like it. I've seen about five minutes of it, and it was just Scooby Doo with an art style and character designs that just felt a bit off too me, compared to other versions of SD. It could be a fine show, I don't know. I haven't watched any Scooby Doo in awhile (although I've seen a fair amount of it over the years). I don't really know what you could do with it that would be any different than all of the shows before it, outside of making them chase actual ghosts...
See, that's just it: you don't know. And the best thing to do when you don't know is not to jump to conclusions about what you think it could or couldn't be. The best thing to do is to actually find out. The whole series is now available on DVD, and the first season is on Netflix.

What's different about SDMI is not the basic story format; it's still mostly the same formula of exposing a different fraud each week. What's different is the approach to that formula, the much wilder and more subversive, satirical take on it. It's taking the familiar formula and poking fun at it while also ramping it up to eleven. Plus, as I said, they deepened the characters and their relationships and added an overarching mythology arc that went extremely dark toward the end.


The Harlan Ellison thing is really weird. I don't know why they'd have him play himself. How many Scooby Doo watchers know Ellison?
Again, you're letting your preconceptions trap you. As I already told you, this is anything but a conventional Scooby-Doo show -- it's Scooby-Doo for people who don't like Scooby-Doo. It's Scooby-Doo for people who like The X-Files and Twin Peaks and Lovecraft and Harlan Ellison and Star Trek and all sorts of other pop culture. The series is loaded with in-jokes and pop-culture allusions, many of which are very esoteric.


I barely know him as the guy who was listed in the credits on a lot of B5 episodes, and the guy who wasn't happy about his Star Trek TOS script being changed...
The consistent theme in your comments is the fact that you barely know anything about the subjects you're discussing, but still believe that somehow qualifies you to talk about them at great length rather than actually trying to learn something about them. You learn a hell of a lot more by listening than you do by talking.

Harlan Ellison is one of the great science fiction authors of the 20th century, a gifted wordsmith and fantasist who was one of the leading figures of the New Wave of SF in the 1960s and '70s. He's also an intensely polarizing and controversial figure who's made a career as a world-class curmudgeon, grouch, and loudmouth; his decades-long tantrum about "The City on the Edge of Forever" is just one facet of that.


I'm just saying that a guy who worked on scooby Doo would not be my first choice to work on a Batman TV show.
And you're speaking from profound and willful ignorance, and that blinds you, and that's very sad to see. You'll never understand these things as long as you treat your ignorance as something to be defended rather than corrected. And frankly I'm tired of trying to get through to you because it's clear you don't want to be gotten through to.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:00 AM   #265
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

The titles are slick, I am really interested in how this is going to turn out. I'm not so crazy about the designs of Professor Pyg and Toad that I've seen but I see potential in the animation to grow on me. Especially since I think I'm one of the few that got enjoyment from The Batman, there was some solid animation and fight choreography there if you gave it a chance.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:37 AM   #266
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

I am not sure why but I am not seeing the titles. The link takes me to the page, I see the article and picture but no video. I thought maybe a pop up was being blocked and that did not help.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:19 AM   #267
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

^^ It took forever to load for me. I opened it in another tab, went back about five minutes later and nothing-- but when I went back the next time it was there.

I thought the title sequence was pretty cool, actually. The theme is odd for Batman, but I like it.
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Old July 3 2013, 02:06 PM   #268
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
I am not sure why but I am not seeing the titles. The link takes me to the page, I see the article and picture but no video. I thought maybe a pop up was being blocked and that did not help.
^ Same, went to youtube instead
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Old July 3 2013, 03:47 PM   #269
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
The titles are slick, I am really interested in how this is going to turn out. I'm not so crazy about the designs of Professor Pyg and Toad that I've seen but I see potential in the animation to grow on me. Especially since I think I'm one of the few that got enjoyment from The Batman, there was some solid animation and fight choreography there if you gave it a chance.
I also throughly enjoyed The Batman, the prior mention of disdain for it was the first I can recall seeing. I own the whole series and in lieu of having the BTAS I find it a good series.

Now come on WB Animation, re-release BTAS complete collection again!!!
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Old July 3 2013, 07:03 PM   #270
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Christopher wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Objectively I think The BM is a worse show, but I hate TT Go! more because its horrible show thats taking advantage of the memory of a show I really enjoyed. I remember actually enjoying Jackie Chan Adventures, but its been years since I've seen it.
That just goes to show that you can't judge creators by a single show, because Jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman were made by many of the same people. They both had Duane Capizzi and Michael Goguen as producers and Jeff Matsuda as head character designer.
Thats interesting, but it doesn't really let them off the hook for making The Batman. Maybe it proves people that made the batman aren't all bad, but it also supports my thoughts that people can make good shows but not transition well to making superhero shows.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I wasn't trying to insult Mystery Incorporated. Its fine if you like it. I've seen about five minutes of it, and it was just Scooby Doo with an art style and character designs that just felt a bit off too me, compared to other versions of SD. It could be a fine show, I don't know. I haven't watched any Scooby Doo in awhile (although I've seen a fair amount of it over the years). I don't really know what you could do with it that would be any different than all of the shows before it, outside of making them chase actual ghosts...
See, that's just it: you don't know. And the best thing to do when you don't know is not to jump to conclusions about what you think it could or couldn't be. The best thing to do is to actually find out. The whole series is now available on DVD, and the first season is on Netflix.

What's different about SDMI is not the basic story format; it's still mostly the same formula of exposing a different fraud each week. What's different is the approach to that formula, the much wilder and more subversive, satirical take on it. It's taking the familiar formula and poking fun at it while also ramping it up to eleven. Plus, as I said, they deepened the characters and their relationships and added an overarching mythology arc that went extremely dark toward the end.
I did watch the first episode of season 1 online yesterday. It wasn't bad. I thought seeing their parents was interesting (if filled with cliches, like the parents who don't like the kid's friends, the parents who want their kid to grow up and do what they want them to do, the parent who wants their kid to just obey them) and I liked some of the character moments (like Fred having an almost unhealthy obsession with traps, and Velma/Shaggy apparently dating or something). I don't have netflix so I can't see it that way, and I'm not going to buy the DVD's when I'm not even sure if I'd like the show going forward (plus its pretty expensive, with all the different volumes you have to buy for season one) but, simply from that episode, it seems like a decent show. I'd probably watch more if it was on TV.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I barely know him as the guy who was listed in the credits on a lot of B5 episodes, and the guy who wasn't happy about his Star Trek TOS script being changed...
The consistent theme in your comments is the fact that you barely know anything about the subjects you're discussing, but still believe that somehow qualifies you to talk about them at great length rather than actually trying to learn something about them. You learn a hell of a lot more by listening than you do by talking.

Harlan Ellison is one of the great science fiction authors of the 20th century, a gifted wordsmith and fantasist who was one of the leading figures of the New Wave of SF in the 1960s and '70s. He's also an intensely polarizing and controversial figure who's made a career as a world-class curmudgeon, grouch, and loudmouth; his decades-long tantrum about "The City on the Edge of Forever" is just one facet of that.
Well, I wasn't really discussing Ellison, it wasn't really a subject in the conversation. I was just commenting on what you said about scooby doo, so the comment about me "barely knowing anything about the subjects I'm discussing" makes no sense. The whole point was that I barely know Ellison, and to me he seems like a weird guest on a scooby-Doo TV show. I'm sure he's a popular writer, he just doesn't write stuff I'd read. While I like Science fiction a lot, its usually in specific franchises. I almost never just read a science fiction book thats not connected to a franchise I already enjoy from other media, like Star Trek or Star Wars. I sometimes do, and it can be rewarding. The Dune series is a classic, and John Ringo's Troy Rising trilogy and Mike Resnick's Starship series were both awesome sci fi books I took a chance on.

But taking chances, even on famous Sci Fi writers, can also be horrible. Arthur C. Clarke's Cradle was probably the worst sci fi book I've ever read. Besides the fact that the sci fi stuff and characters weren't very good, it had a lot of sex scenes, which were sometimes rather detailed, and took up more almost more space than the sci fi stuff. Just reading that pile has made it even less likely that I'd read a sci fi book by famous people I'm not familiar with (that part about Cradle doesn't have a lot of connection with ellison, I'm just using it as an example of what happened when I tried to read another famous sci fi author, I'm sure that kind of thing wouldn't show up with Ellison's stuff). I almost never read anything by any sci fi writer who wasn't Frank Herbert or a Star Trek/Star wars writer, and that includes never reading anything Ellison has ever written. That is not a statement about his abilities, its just explaining that he's just not the type of author I read, which is where my comment about not knowing him came from.


Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm just saying that a guy who worked on scooby Doo would not be my first choice to work on a Batman TV show.
And you're speaking from profound and willful ignorance, and that blinds you, and that's very sad to see. You'll never understand these things as long as you treat your ignorance as something to be defended rather than corrected. And frankly I'm tired of trying to get through to you because it's clear you don't want to be gotten through to.
Scooby-Doo and Batman are fairly different franchises (although they actually did meet once, which was actually pretty entertaining, it wasn't exactly a serious superhero story). Making a show about teenagers solving mysteries with their talking dog is a bit different than making a show about a superhero. The post earlier about the people making jackie Chan Adventures and The Batman supports my opinion that some people can make good shows, but not always transition to other types of shows and still make good stuff.
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