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Old July 2 2013, 10:35 PM   #631
Charles Phipps
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

yousirname wrote: View Post

Good grief, no. I can understand them being more fun to watch or whatever, but wow, no way.
For me, I'd definitely not live on Earth. Not sure about Bajor or Kronos.

If it's as uptight as displayed, you couldn't get me off that planet fast enough.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:32 PM   #632
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

nightwind1 wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
I'm asking for states who had none for an appreciable amount of time and it worked.
Ancient Egypt: transactions were conducted via measured amounts of grain, which could be used by the worker who earned it as food or for further transactions.
That's a lot more like "money" than barter.
But according to this:

"Alexander was also the man responsible for destroying what remained of the ancient credit systems, since not only the Phoenicians but also the old Mesopotamian heartland had resisted the new coin economy." Debt: the First 5,000 Years by David Graeber

It seems the Ancients around the east Mediterranean weren't too ecstatic about the monetized economy. Graeber maintains money is a tool of the state or regime to impose taxes to fund war machines and impose sovereignty and that mutual aid or credit systems (like the Egyptian grain) were otherwise the norm, not money or barter.

"Knapp considered it absurd to attempt to understand money 'without the idea of the state.' Money is not a medium that emerges from exchange. It is rather a means for accounting for and settling debts, the most important of which are tax debts." The Nature of Money by Geoffrey Ingham
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Old July 2 2013, 11:34 PM   #633
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Dunno if it's been mentioned, but the whole "no pockets" thing.

Just cause a society doesn't have money doesn't mean they don't have do-dads or whatever else to put in pockets still...

The no jewelery thing was silly, too. Especially since Uhura got to wear earrings sometimes.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:53 PM   #634
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post

So in other words, you'd act nice toward the people, while at the same time tell them everything they've ever believed is wrong?
No I act compassionately toward them while gentle easing them into there new way of life.

Yeah they have to have there wrong way of thought corrected but that does not mean you have to be a douche about it does it?

If a kid gets a his homework wrong you don't (or shouldn't) be a complete dick about it, you sit them down a nicely explain what was wrong with it.
So now you're comparing people from a previous era to ignorant children. Thanks for confirming my original point.
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Old July 3 2013, 12:33 AM   #635
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

In response to T'Girl,

Kibbutz's are not moneyless societies, the majority of people working in them are being paid for their efforts, and the outside workers brought into the Kibbutz communities are also paid. There are a small number of communities that claim to be moneyless, but there is a financial system and they are being supported by government subsidies, so are not moneyless.

It hard to see a Kibbutz as an example of your point.
Wow! Except for the fact that the kibbutzim help lay the foundation for a future nation. Talk about minimizing.

"In short, the individual has no money, nor does he need any, because his economic needs are satisfied by the kibbutz." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro.

Sounds moneyless to me.

They existed in a limited area of one city for what TheGoodNews, three years before collapsing? Basically (if I have your reference correct) the digger group was given food (charity), and they occasion stole food from the local markets (stealing), they then gave this food away. They also attempted to run a substandard medical clinic (for free) before being shut down by the San Francisco board of health.

This was in no way a moneyless society, it was basically like today's food banks without the thieving, people (with money) provide food to a charitable organization, the food is then either sold at low cost or given away to those in need. My church helps run one of these.

Again, not an example of a "moneyless" society.
The San Francisco Diggers were a sub-culture, much like their historic namesakes from England. Much of their food came from restaurant and super market overflows that would have otherwise been tossed away.
They did try with their free housing, free store and other moneyless projects to make an important statement about poverty and homelessness in an abundant society. In fact, their most famous member Peter Coyote even had a few poignant statements about scarcity in the land of plenty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iki6oDgPf48

The International Workers of the World are a trade union organizing service group, and their efforts are to increase wages and benefits, not create a moneyless society.

And they are not particularly successful at it, they have maybe a few thousand members. Most workers who are serious about possessing a union look elsewhere for organization services.
Nearly a century ago the IWW (a.k.a Wobblies) had over 100k members and they did help improve conditions significantly for the American worker.

"Around the turn of the century, the Wobblies and other anarchists played the central role in winning workers the 5-day week and 8-hour day." David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology.

Your penchant for minimizing knows no bounds, T'G. A guilt complex, perhaps?

Just did a board search of your user name and the phrase "time banks." Correct me if I'm wrong, but in fact you've never mentioned time banks before. Maybe I missed it?
I mentioned it in my posting: "Star Trek IV: Changes in society since 1986" in one of the Star Trek movie forums. Unfortunately, it's no longer there.

The prime problem with "time banks" is there a lot of volunteering of unskilled labor, and relatively little volunteering by the professionally skilled. Nothing wrong with volunteering your time, but you can't base a society on it.
But worldwide they've grown in popularity due to the global recession and have helped so many around the world to at least get by. But as usual you keep trying to minimize the impact it has had. Try being that dismissive with the many people who've had to rely on them.

...the Barter/Exchange Co-ops of present-day Argentina.
Where all workers receive the same wages. Again, not an example of a moneyless society.
Have you not seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdXTq9zUvk

Thousands and thousands of Argentinians getting by w/o money in a self-organized economy for the better part of a decade. Again, explain to these desperate people how futile their efforts are.

So you see T'G, I've brought up other historical examples besides the Spanish Revolution.
Where?

Like I've said, the Kibbutz movement during the early decades were completely socialized and did not use money. Even today there are close to 300 kibbutzim that collectively contribute to nearly 10% of the Israeli economy. And 25% are traditional communal (i.e. moneyless) where tasks are shared or rotated and where the average population of each kibbutz is around 400 people. That's a community of nearly 30K living outside a monetary system in today's world. And some purists even argue that if it involves money, wage-differentials and private property it goes against the principles of the kibbutzim and is therefore not a true kibbutz by the definition.

Oh, and regarding the Spanish Revolution, I advised you read Noam Chomsky's "Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship" section II, where he reviews the liberal intelligentsia's bias against the tremendous accomplishments of the Spanish workers and the reasons for that bias. Read it here, for free (as in you don't need to pay):

http://www.ditext.com/chomsky/1968.html


"In Barcelona, industry and commerce were largely collectivized, and a wave of collectivization spread through rural areas, as well as towns and villages, in Aragon, Castile, and the Levant, and to a lesser but still significant extent in many parts of Catalonia, Asturias, Estremadura, and Andalusia....The success of collectivization of industry and commerce in Barcelona impressed even highly unsympathetic observers such as Borkenau." Noam Chomsky - Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship from Chomsky on Anarchism
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Old July 3 2013, 12:51 AM   #636
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
See my above comments. There was the Spanish Revolution and the Kibbutz movement. Also, in the U.S. there was the San Francisco Diggers which included actor Peter Coyote and engaged in many moneyless activities.
I'm not asking for people who want to get rid of money. I know those exist. I'm asking for states who had none for an appreciable amount of time and it worked.
Go to 21:45 on the video below. They interview three old timers from Spain who talk about the time money was abolished in their community:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN5TbqzxQBg

This was a large and ambitious movement.

"There were commercial dealings with other collectives on the basis of barter. The value of produce was agreed by general consent. Rarely was money the basis for intercourse. The collective was affiliated to the regional federation of collectives and was based on solidarity and mutual aid. Man's exploitation of his fellow man was abolished utterly." The CNT in the Spanish Revolution by Jose Peirats.

Last edited by TheGoodNews; July 3 2013 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Computer went out b4 finishing.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:45 AM   #637
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional.
And this phrase on your part, moneyless society, is what I'm going to hold you to.

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
I mentioned it in my posting: "Star Trek IV: Changes in society since 1986" in one of the Star Trek movie forums. Unfortunately, it's no longer there.
Found it, you ran time and bank together to form a single word.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...81&postcount=1

But your supposition there is in error, time banks (or timebanks) are not "popular globally." Several thousand people in 26 nations does not equate to "popular globally." Nor do the time banks collectively form a "moneyless society," the thinly spread participants (who come and go) are not a community in any way. The banks are more of a charitable organization. And you TheGoodNews fail to disclose that the local organizers of the time banks are themselves often paid employees.

Moneyless huh?

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
Wow! Except for the fact that the kibbutzim help lay the foundation for a future nation.
Except they were never Israel's foundation. Israel was never going to be a society of agrarian communes, but a urban society. The kibbutism were never Israel's "template."

Nor were the Kibbutzim ever really "moneyless societies," they required constant in pouring of outside money to stay in operation. At first mostly from the Jewish National Fund. After Israel's became a nation the kibbutzism became dependent on government subsidies.

How is that a "moneyless society?"

"In short, the individual has no money, nor does he need any, because his economic needs are satisfied by the kibbutz." Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia by Melford Spiro.
Since you apparently enjoy quotes ...

The globalization processes and the kibbutz failure to block them exposed the kibbutz society to a different type of culture. For example, after kibbutz members were allowed to have television sets in their own homes, the kibbutz members were exposed to “the good life” in which people were compensated for their work and could buy themselves different luxurious items. The kibbutzim were not capable of dealing with these processes

Consumption and Market Society in Israel, by Carmeli Y. and Applbaum K.


People in kibbutzism began to realize that the people in the rest of Israeli society (capitalist) and the rest of the world were "getting ahead" when those people work harder or smarter than the others within societies. Many within the kibbutzism want this life for themselves and their families. The people in the kibbutzism were all paid the same, regardless of their skills or labors. The kibbutzism simply could not compete with the growing knowledge of the non-kibbutz world.

They start to bleed their best people.

This lead to differences in pay within the kibbutzism based on the work individuals do, privatization of medical services, education, transfer of common property into the ownership of individual kibbutz members.

Any "satisfaction" in the economic set-up of the kibbutz, can be attributed to being isolated from the life styles of the rest of the Jews in their greater society.

Sounds moneyless to me.
Then how did they buy the television sets?

Like I've said, the Kibbutz movement during the early decades were completely socialized and did not use money.
And during these "early decades" how did they buy the land that they establish their communities on? Purchase the equipment to drain the swamps, farming equipment, weapons, building supplies?

And they were also hiring (with money) outside labors to assist in construction, and at harvest time.

The San Francisco Diggers were a sub-culture ...
But not a society in of themselves. They were not a "moneyless society," they were a short lived charity.

Thousands and thousands of Argentinians getting by w/o money in a self-organized economy for the better part of a decade.
Stop one damn minute, it's your position that those poor suffering people in that youtube video are CHOOSING to live like that? That's insane, less than one minute into the video, a woman dressed in red admitted her family having no money makes her feel ashamed. Later she said "what I really need is to work, to have money."

These people are doing the best they can in a undesirable economic environment, offer any of those people a paying job and they would literally jump at it.

This is one of your examples of a "moneyless society?"

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Old July 3 2013, 04:12 AM   #638
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
The Neutral Zone gets a lot of flak for it's condescending attitude toward 20th-century people, but if a bunch of refugees from the 17th century walked through a time portal to modern times, how tolerant and understanding do you think we'd be toward their worldview?

I really think GR was on to something with his ideas about enlightened humanity. Not as an end goal, but as a process that's been going on for millennia and will continue into the future.
I think the people of TNZ were deliberately played as asinine. However, I'm inclined to believe people would be more tolerant than they would be of the reverse.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:23 AM   #639
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Stop one damn minute, it's your position that those poor suffering people in that youtube video are CHOOSING to live like that? That's insane, less than one minute into the video, a woman dressed in red admitted her family having no money makes her feel ashamed. Later she said "what I really need is to work, to have money."

These people are doing the best they can in a undesirable economic environment, offer any of those people a paying job and they would literally jump at it.

This is one of your examples of a "moneyless society?"

NOPE! I never said (nor implied) that this is what they had chosen. The IMF imposed this unfortunate situation on these people. NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THAT THE PEOPLE OF ARGENTINA CHOSE THIS. BUT LIKE THE FACTORY & WORK PLACE OCCUPATIONS IN ARGENTINA, IN THEIR DESPERATION THEY DID SHOW GOOD INITIATIVE IN CREATING THEIR OWN SUPPORT SYSTEM SINCE NEITHER THE STATE NOR CAPITAL WERE IN A READY POSITION TO HELP THEM. AND IT PROVED TO BE A FUNCTIONAL SYSTEM DURING AN ECONOMIC CRASH AND IT BROUGHT SOME RELIEF TO NEARLY A 100,000 ARGENTINEANS. IN THE VIDEO (AT 17:39) IT MENTIONS THAT THESE ECONOMIC CO-OPS WERE SO SUCCESSFUL IN ARGENTINA THAT THERE WAS HOPE OF INTRODUCING THEM TO OTHER PARTS OF SOUTH AMERICA. AND IT DOES MENTION AFTERWARDS THAT THESE CO-OPS WERE NEVER INTENDED TO BE THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION TO THEIR ECONOMIC WOES. TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AND SEE.

A society is a collection of individuals interacting with each other in a cohesive manner. It could be very large like China or India or very small like the Skull & Bones Society (which is anything but moneyless) and which has at any given time not more than a few hundred living individuals total. Christiania in Denmark is a separate society within Danish society that has about eight hundred members. Give or take. They have their own flag and currency.

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Old July 3 2013, 06:34 PM   #640
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I think the people of TNZ were deliberately played as asinine. However, I'm inclined to believe people would be more tolerant than they would be of the reverse.
I think less "asinine, and more fish out of water. The woman didn't even know ahead of time she was going to be frozen, and then had to deal with (more than the two men) that all of her family was dead.

The music man seem to have no problem with his surrounding right from the start, and it would be easy to see him assimilating in the future culture with the least trouble.

The businessman (Offenhouse) was somewhere in the middle. My impression was that his problem wasn't direct that his money was gone, it's that his money was what he used to exercise control over his own life, with the lose of that control he was cast adrift.

Picard's (asinine) pronouncement that the ability to control your own life is a illusion likely wasn't very helpfull. Picard's statement might be another example of one of Roddenberry's worst ideas.

Someone asked earlier (iirc) what would the treatment be for three people from 300 years in the past waking up in our time, first they would likely instantly become celebrities. Yes some education would have to be offered, but the derisive comments heard I think would be absent.

When the women started to cry, faced with her new realility, I very much doubt that a modern person standing in the room would wonder (as Picard apparently did) why she was crying.

Picard could be clueless at times.

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Old July 3 2013, 06:39 PM   #641
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

To be fair though, I don't blame Picard for his behavior. He was under a lot of stress with the Romulans at that time. I do, however, fault Troi for not being with those three the whole time and helping them to understand what's happened. It's her job to hold people's hands and talk softly, not Picard's.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:03 PM   #642
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
So now you're comparing people from a previous era to ignorant children. Thanks for confirming my original point.
So how would you treat them?

Like dirt? Like in TNG?
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Old July 3 2013, 09:17 PM   #643
Third Nacelle
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
So now you're comparing people from a previous era to ignorant children. Thanks for confirming my original point.
So how would you treat them?

Like dirt? Like in TNG?
I certainly wouldn't coddle them.

The question was never about how they would be treated, but how their worldview would be respected. That you feel they would need to be re-educated shows it wouldn't be respected at all, and indeed many things about 17th century beliefs would not be compatible in our times. Nor would things about 20th century beliefs be combatible in the 24th century.

Everything Picard had to say to Offenhouse was dead on. Yeah, he could have said it nicer, but Offenhouse obviously didn't put much stake in niceness anyway.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:26 PM   #644
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
I would be understanding that they have gone through a traumatic event and understand that they need re educating.

I certainly would not be patronising and out right rude to the poor people like in TNG. If that what "evolved" really is then Im happy being a monkey.
In a way, you get the feeling that the writers are talking to us, the viewers, through these characters.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:27 PM   #645
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

I certainly wouldn't coddle them.

The question was never about how they would be treated, but how their worldview would be respected. That you feel they would need to be re-educated shows it wouldn't be respected at all, and indeed many things about 17th century beliefs would not be compatible in our times. Nor would things about 20th century beliefs be combatible in the 24th century.

Everything Picard had to say to Offenhouse was dead on. Yeah, he could have said it nicer, but Offenhouse obviously didn't put much stake in niceness anyway.
I bet he meets plenty of traders and he does not treat them like that. Why is he even dating that greedy Vash chick then? Is she so much bettr than Offenhouse?

Belz
In a way, you get the feeling that the writers are talking to us, the viewers, through these characters.
No wonder they only wrote that one episode.
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