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Old July 1 2013, 10:08 PM   #616
Third Nacelle
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
The series, however, maintains the federation is a fundamentally good organization and its people are trying to be better than they are--which is depicted as a good thing.
That's ALL any Star Trek ever claimed about the Federation. Nobody every said it was a perfect, nobody ever said that it was a utopia, even in the preachy early days of TNG. That's something that Trek fans (and detractors) came up with.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:09 PM   #617
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
My bigger problem with economics as portrayed in the show is not how people are incentivized to work (some minimum that gets power to the household replicator), but that it says little about consumer choices. It's been shown many times that people have tastes that cannot be satisfied by the replicator. Who gets to eat at Siskos? Where does Riker get real eggs? Why should Quark stock yammuk sauce? Why should someone hold onto antique spectacles?
I had this conversation with my players at a tabletop RPG who, essentially, as their FIRST question about my game was to resolve the money-issue. It's why I decided they were a cashless socialist society (but credits=money).

In-universe, however, they have people who apparently prefer "organic" and keep antiques.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:10 PM   #618
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post

That's ALL any Star Trek ever claimed about the Federation. Nobody every said it was a perfect, nobody ever said that it was a utopia, even in the preachy early days of TNG. That's something that Trek fans (and detractors) came up with.
And Roddenberry wanted.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:19 PM   #619
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
My bigger problem with economics as portrayed in the show is not how people are incentivized to work (some minimum that gets power to the household replicator), but that it says little about consumer choices. It's been shown many times that people have tastes that cannot be satisfied by the replicator. Who gets to eat at Siskos? Where does Riker get real eggs? Why should Quark stock yammuk sauce? Why should someone hold onto antique spectacles?
I should hope centuries from now we've stopped identifying ourselves as consumers, and ditched consumer culture entirely.

In the absence of government-issued money, a bartering system would probably develop, maybe even involving an unofficial currency (perhaps that's what credits are?). I would imagine Grandpa Sisko reserves some seats for people who provide him with fresh ingredients, and the rest are first-come, first serve.

There will always be goods and services to trade that you can't replicate, land and time being the main things that come to mind. People will always want to trade. That doesn't mean they will continue to devote their entire lives to money and material acquisition.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:27 PM   #620
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

I'm inclined to think credits=money but it's just not IMPORTANT as it is in our day.

How important is money, for example, if housing/food/education/medicine is all free?
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Old July 2 2013, 11:10 AM   #621
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Who gets to eat at Siskos?
And how did Sisko get that location for his restaurant in the first place? What if someone else also wanted that location for a different business, did they wrestle in the street for it? Or did Sisko out bid (money) the other person for it?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
How important is money, for example, if housing/food/education/medicine is all free?
Housing (as in a house) apparently isn't. Kirk owned and later sold his house. Because Grandpa Sisko had a restaurant, and not just a large room with tables in his home, food is sold.

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Everyone has a place to live, and you don't have to pay a mortgage, but if you want your dream home, you have to earn it.
Given that they are buying and selling property, mortgages likely still exist.

Automated or maybe androids take care of it.
The impression I've received from the show is that robots and robotics are not completely unknown, but are very rare, jobs are done by people.

When Deanna was taking her bridge officer qualification test, there wasn't the option of sending a machine into a radioactive area to effect a repair, she had to send a person.

You could work for rights, privileges or even levels of citizenship.
Interesting idea, the more you put into society, the more you get back. Expend no effort, and you're be a protected, provided for second class citizen (maybe third class).


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Old July 2 2013, 05:27 PM   #622
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
^ Now I'm thinking maybe I should watch Deep Space Nine.
Oh yeah, they don't even hide it.

* Quark and the Ferengi constantly mock the fact the humans don't use money but need it whenever OTHER cultures come up who do.

(One episode has them repeat Picards "we no longer need money, we improve ourselves" speech sarcastically.)

* Religion is an important part of people's lives and attempts to suppress (or "educate" those who believe in it) it is diminishing yourself as well as the people who believe it.

* Dismissing deities in a world with Sufficiently Advanced Aliens is stupid since the two might as well be interchangeable.

* The Federation's self-described utopianism actually creeps other races out, leading them to believe they'll suck up other races' cultures and replace them with a meaningless family friendly Disneyland version.

(They call it "Federation root beer" -- look it up on Youtube)

* The ends sometimes DO justify the means.

* There's a group which does the Federation's dirty work so everyone else can feel safe and secure.

* Sometimes war is inevitable and the other side isn't capable of being reasoned with.

* People would use holodecks for sex--all the time.

* Infinite Diversity and Utopianism are incompatible--you have to accept the good with the bad in tolerance.

* And my favorite: If you were a 20th century human you'd probably prefer living with the Bajorans or Klingons.

It's very very idealistic but the series is one long deconstruction of everything Roddenberry's vision implied.
And you just spelled out all the reasons why DS9 is my number one favorite trek
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Old July 2 2013, 07:03 PM   #623
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
* And my favorite: If you were a 20th century human you'd probably prefer living with the Bajorans or Klingons.
Good grief, no. I can understand them being more fun to watch or whatever, but wow, no way.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:54 PM   #624
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Ditto.
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Old July 2 2013, 08:15 PM   #625
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

The Neutral Zone gets a lot of flak for it's condescending attitude toward 20th-century people, but if a bunch of refugees from the 17th century walked through a time portal to modern times, how tolerant and understanding do you think we'd be toward their worldview?

I really think GR was on to something with his ideas about enlightened humanity. Not as an end goal, but as a process that's been going on for millennia and will continue into the future.
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Old July 2 2013, 09:03 PM   #626
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I really think GR was on to something with his ideas about enlightened humanity. Not as an end goal, but as a process that's been going on for millennia and will continue into the future.
I think it's fair that Roddenberry wanted to advance a goal for human development, but the settings and the restrictions placed on dramatic presentation leave many questions about what it all means and how we get there. I wouldn't find it surprising that the smartest, most talented humans, who have been incorporated into a disciplined uniform service, would represent the best qualities of humanity: the same could be said, more or less, of the graduates of Annapolis or Harvard today. Add to that that these people work exclusively those who share their values. Everyone on a starship would be tolerant: they would be selected to be tolerant. However, life isn't such a rarified organization that can move on to new locations after a few days.
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Old July 2 2013, 09:28 PM   #627
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
The Neutral Zone gets a lot of flak for it's condescending attitude toward 20th-century people, but if a bunch of refugees from the 17th century walked through a time portal to modern times, how tolerant and understanding do you think we'd be toward their worldview?
I would be understanding that they have gone through a traumatic event and understand that they need re educating.

I certainly would not be patronising and out right rude to the poor people like in TNG. If that what "evolved" really is then Im happy being a monkey.
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Old July 2 2013, 09:30 PM   #628
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

* Religion is an important part of people's lives and attempts to suppress (or "educate" those who believe in it) it is diminishing yourself as well as the people who believe it.
I find it interesting that there is nothing like a "universalizing" religion is DS9. One's religion is a matter of one's beliefs and one's ethnic membership. I can think of any religion that claims to be the one truth for everyone, and there is no effort to convert everyone. (Although my memory might fail me on this).
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Old July 2 2013, 09:43 PM   #629
Third Nacelle
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
... understand that they need re educating.
So in other words, you'd act nice toward the people, while at the same time tell them everything they've ever believed is wrong?
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Old July 2 2013, 09:47 PM   #630
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post

So in other words, you'd act nice toward the people, while at the same time tell them everything they've ever believed is wrong?
No I act compassionately toward them while gentle easing them into there new way of life.

Yeah they have to have there wrong way of thought corrected but that does not mean you have to be a douche about it does it?

If a kid gets a his homework wrong you don't (or shouldn't) be a complete dick about it, you sit them down a nicely explain what was wrong with it.
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