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Old July 2 2013, 10:39 AM   #16
JarodRussell
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

If Dean can sue, then the guy who did this should also be able to sue Abrams/Paramount.

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Old July 2 2013, 11:08 AM   #17
Pingfah
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
If Dean can sue, then the guy who did this should also be able to sue Abrams/Paramount.
He can sue Paramount.

He'd lose of course, not least because that ship is Paramount's intellectual property to begin with, making that hypothetical case entirely different from the one being discussed here.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:22 AM   #18
Jan
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Gaith wrote: View Post
Jan wrote: View Post
Apparently people in the production had stated that they were given Dean's work to base Avatar items and markings on.
Even if true, so what? You can't copyright the idea of a floating island, and the Hallelujah Mountains were heavily enough inspired by actual mountains in China as to make any ripping off claim silly and completely baseless in legal terms at best.
Any idiot knows that you can't copyright an idea, only execution. That's what this is about - actual copying of multiple images/structures/markings and admission of same. Not an accident, not an homage, not a coincidence, willful wrongdoing. Something Cameron's done before and lost that lawsuit.

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Old July 2 2013, 11:23 AM   #19
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Floating islands have been used in fiction for as long as ever. This guy can bugger off, he was obviously inspired by something else, as avatar was inspired by multiple things. Obviously his day job isn't paying the bills any more. Nothing but greed. Plain and simple. I hope he the case gets kicked out.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:48 AM   #20
Jan
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

I found this to be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hODMaPh65Cg

Jan
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Old July 2 2013, 01:26 PM   #21
Relayer1
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

I (obviously) love Roger's work AND many of Cameron's films. I have no axe to grind and doubt Roger will win, but he deserved a credit or at least a 'thanks'.

There are some very direct lifts, not just influences.
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Old July 2 2013, 01:55 PM   #22
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Seems like it's more about the style of the images, rather than the content.

Someone with a lot more legal knowledge than myself would have to help out here. If the style looks too much like Dean's, maybe he has a case?

Funny that he waited 4 years to bring this up, though that guy claimed only a few years ago that he wrote the melody Men At Work used in the flute solo from Down Under. That was like, 25 years.
I don't know enough about this subject to comment on the merits (my initial thought is it would have to be pretty damn similar to have a valid cause of action). It's also entirely possible he waited too long to bring this claim (I think there's a three year statute of limitations).
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Old July 2 2013, 02:36 PM   #23
Jan
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
It's also entirely possible he waited too long to bring this claim (I think there's a three year statute of limitations).
Yes and no. With plagiarism, as long as it's ongoing, as in this case where Avatar is still being shown and sold, the three year 'clock' for the statute wouldn't even have started yet.

ETA:
HARLAN ELLISON
- Sunday, June 30 2013 14:44:26

SHOUT-OUT TO PHIL NICHOLS & EVERYBODY ELSE ...
IN THE WORLD !!!!!!!!

Please make it go viral, if you can, that HARLAN ELLISON IS READY TO TESTIFY FOR ROGER DEAN in his plagiarism lawsuit against James Cameron. Please refresh Roger's memory that I have been in his place, same guy, same allegation, and that I won...with smoking gun in Mr. Cameron's mouth, along with his foot. I have no animus toward Cameron, but he really must stop stealing from his betters.

Please, anyone, get to Roger or his legal staff, and at least have them become aware of this vital litigious history!

I have great fondness for Roger Dean and the immaculate originality of his work. The moment I saw AVATAR I recognized the breaking&entering of the Dean Sacrament.

Any help will be appreciated. This suit has been long in the coming.

Yr. Pal, Harlan
Folks here will remember that Harlan sued Cameron for plagiarism and won.

Jan
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Old July 2 2013, 05:50 PM   #24
Kestrel
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

"His betters?" Really?
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Old July 2 2013, 06:05 PM   #25
Gaith
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Jan wrote: View Post
Any idiot knows that you can't copyright an idea, only execution. That's what this is about - actual copying of multiple images/structures/markings and admission of same. Not an accident, not an homage, not a coincidence, willful wrongdoing. Something Cameron's done before and lost that lawsuit.
Lots of perfectly smart people don't know anything about copyright law, so calm the hell down.

As for your glaring bias, one person's "homage" is very often another person's "outright theft." Were you in the room to hear Cameron instructing his artists to take inspiration from Dean's work, along with the look of actual mountains? Did you hear him saying to trace specific shapes and outlines? Or are you taking one litigant's perspective at face value and then some?

Moreoever, why would Cameron tell his artists to copy Dean's shapes directly, instead of taking inspiration from them and photos of the aforementioned landscapes? Why would he go out of his way in such a manner to open himself up to charges of theft? Because he's a cackling cartoon supervillain?

Jan wrote: View Post
Folks here will remember that Harlan sued Cameron for plagiarism and won.
"Settling out of court" is not synonymous with "winning" a lawsuit.

I sense much anger in you.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:00 PM   #26
Jan
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Gaith wrote: View Post
"Settling out of court" is not synonymous with "winning" a lawsuit.
It's sure not losing, is it?

I sense much anger in you.
To paraphrase a popular TV show"You sense nothing, Jon Snow."

Jan
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Old July 2 2013, 07:03 PM   #27
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Jan wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
It's also entirely possible he waited too long to bring this claim (I think there's a three year statute of limitations).
Yes and no. With plagiarism, as long as it's ongoing, as in this case where Avatar is still being shown and sold, the three year 'clock' for the statute wouldn't even have started yet.

ETA:
HARLAN ELLISON
- Sunday, June 30 2013 14:44:26

SHOUT-OUT TO PHIL NICHOLS & EVERYBODY ELSE ...
IN THE WORLD !!!!!!!!

Please make it go viral, if you can, that HARLAN ELLISON IS READY TO TESTIFY FOR ROGER DEAN in his plagiarism lawsuit against James Cameron. Please refresh Roger's memory that I have been in his place, same guy, same allegation, and that I won...with smoking gun in Mr. Cameron's mouth, along with his foot. I have no animus toward Cameron, but he really must stop stealing from his betters.

Please, anyone, get to Roger or his legal staff, and at least have them become aware of this vital litigious history!

I have great fondness for Roger Dean and the immaculate originality of his work. The moment I saw AVATAR I recognized the breaking&entering of the Dean Sacrament.

Any help will be appreciated. This suit has been long in the coming.

Yr. Pal, Harlan
Folks here will remember that Harlan sued Cameron for plagiarism and won.

Jan
Harlan Ellison won't be allowed to testify. He has nothing relevant to this case.
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Old July 2 2013, 08:01 PM   #28
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

I'd be more sympathetic to Mr. Dean if his demands were more reasonable and commensurate to the alleged damage. I doubt Avatar (and the sequels) is going to hurt sales of his art books. If he had just asked that proper credit be given and some fair monetary compensation, I'd be totally on his side, but $50 million dollars for some artistic inspiration seems excessive, and demanding that the films no longer be distributed or sequels be made unless they completely remove his influence from the designs just seems needlessly vindictive.

While I don't think Cameron has any malicious intent when he borrows these ideas --because we're all inspired by past works when we come up with any new stories or art-- he really needs to learn to shut the hell up when people ask him direct questions about where the idea came from, because he's his own worst enemy.
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Old July 2 2013, 08:23 PM   #29
Gaith
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Jan wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
"Settling out of court" is not synonymous with "winning" a lawsuit.
It's sure not losing, is it?
If you want to have an intelligent discussion, it's best not to say things that aren't true. "Settling out of court" often only necessarily means that someone (in this case, a quick glance at Wikipedia suggests, a Terminator production company, rather than Cameron himself) decided it'd be cheaper and easier to offer an undisclosed sum of "take this and shut up" money than to continue hashing it out with lawyers for however long the litigant decides to draw things out.

Regardless, your mea culpa is accepted. Moving on...



Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
$50 million dollars for some artistic inspiration seems excessive, and demanding that the films no longer be distributed or sequels be made unless they completely remove his influence from the designs just seems needlessly vindictive.
I'm sure it's a bargaining tactic, asking for Cameron's life savings in hopes of being tossed a few million in a private settlement down the line, but yeah, it does make him look like a crazy person for putting his name on that request in a public court of law, staffed and operated by public funds.



Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
If he had just asked that proper credit be given and some fair monetary compensation, I'd be totally on his side
What, just because he drew some floating islands at some point? Didn't Dali do that first? And while I understand the implication of "Cameron can afford to make some nice donations to artists who've come before him", wouldn't that a) only encourage many more such frivolous lawsuits ("see, he offered that other guy some dough; he's basically admitting to theft!"), and b) have a chilling effect on artists without Cameron's resources? Should the next novelist who wants to write about supernatural spirits affecting pirates in the 18th century Carribbean area offer to give Disney all prospective profits before he even gets started?
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Old July 2 2013, 08:33 PM   #30
Nomad
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

It's not only the floating islands but many other visual aspects of Pandora are very reminiscent of Dean's work. In fact, when I first saw Avatar I assumed they used Dean as a consultant. The similarity to his artwork is pretty close.
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