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Old June 28 2013, 11:28 PM   #16
Portal
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Had ENT continued for a couple more seasons, it probably would have shown the event(s) that caused the war.
Well, we'll just have to wait for the next series.

Oh how I can't wait to see it!
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Old June 28 2013, 11:28 PM   #17
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Praetorian wrote: View Post
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Or that they were a series of Federation outposts located in the Norkan System (or the Norkan Sector) along the Neutral Zone.
Yes, my post was meant as an alternative to yours, should have made it clear.

I do find it unlikely that a "massacre" wouldn't have resulted in war between the Federation and the Romulans.
It could have easily been a case that military action was taken by the Federation that resolved the situation without the need for a full-out war. Romulan forces may have been driven out of the Norkan System and the Romulans acquiesced.

That is true!
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Old June 28 2013, 11:44 PM   #18
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Didn't they mention a 53 year absence in "The Neutral Zone"? If that's so, when could the Norcan campaigns occur?
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Old June 29 2013, 12:15 AM   #19
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Didn't they mention a 53 year absence in "The Neutral Zone"? If that's so, when could the Norcan campaigns occur?
A couple of years before they go into isolationism, IMO. The Norkan Campaign could even have been a precursor to the Tomed Incident.
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Old June 29 2013, 12:56 AM   #20
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

I thought so as well. It just seems odd because Picard and Jarok spoke of it as if it happened in their lifetimes, something they recalled personally. But they would have been children or still unborn.

Maybe it's just my take on their conversation.
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Old June 29 2013, 01:17 AM   #21
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
I thought so as well. It just seems odd because Picard and Jarok spoke of it as if it happened in their lifetimes, something they recalled personally. But they would have been children or still unborn.

Maybe it's just my take on their conversation.
Jarok actually commanded the Romulan forces at Norkan, but given how long Vulcans and Romulans can live, that's not a problem. For Picard, the Norkan Campaign could be something that was a historical event that he studied.
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Last edited by C.E. Evans; June 29 2013 at 09:06 AM. Reason: added the word "the"
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Old June 29 2013, 02:21 PM   #22
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Didn't they mention a 53 year absence in "The Neutral Zone"? If that's so, when could the Norcan campaigns occur?
Later episodes of TNG kind of ignore that fact from The Neutral Zone. Hell, The Neutral Zone itself contradicted Angel One which implied the Federation and the Romulans were on the verge of war.
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Old June 29 2013, 03:14 PM   #23
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Didn't they mention a 53 year absence in "The Neutral Zone"? If that's so, when could the Norcan campaigns occur?
Later episodes of TNG kind of ignore that fact from The Neutral Zone. Hell, The Neutral Zone itself contradicted Angel One which implied the Federation and the Romulans were on the verge of war.
The 53-year period of Romulan isolationism may be in regards to no diplomatic contact (or communications period) with the Romulans during that time, but they were still perceived as a threat nevertheless from past history (the most recent events being the Khitomer massacre and the loss of the Enterprise-C). In "Angel One," the Federation became anxious from just deep-space scans of Romulan vessels mobilizing near the Neutral Zone.
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Old June 29 2013, 06:03 PM   #24
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Didn't they mention a 53 year absence in "The Neutral Zone"? If that's so, when could the Norcan campaigns occur?
Later episodes of TNG kind of ignore that fact from The Neutral Zone. Hell, The Neutral Zone itself contradicted Angel One which implied the Federation and the Romulans were on the verge of war.
The 53-year period of Romulan isolationism may be in regards to no diplomatic contact (or communications period) with the Romulans during that time, but they were still perceived as a threat nevertheless from past history (the most recent events being the Khitomer massacre and the loss of the Enterprise-C). In "Angel One," the Federation became anxious from just deep-space scans of Romulan vessels mobilizing near the Neutral Zone.
Yes, but they also had enough solid information for Data to calculate TO THE MINUTE how long the border outpost and USS Berlin could withstand the Romulan attack. That would need a lot of solid information.

Originally it was going to be the Ferengi until they didn't quite work out as villains, and the matter was not helped by the script of The Neutral Zone.
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Old June 29 2013, 06:24 PM   #25
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Later episodes of TNG kind of ignore that fact from The Neutral Zone. Hell, The Neutral Zone itself contradicted Angel One which implied the Federation and the Romulans were on the verge of war.
The 53-year period of Romulan isolationism may be in regards to no diplomatic contact (or communications period) with the Romulans during that time, but they were still perceived as a threat nevertheless from past history (the most recent events being the Khitomer massacre and the loss of the Enterprise-C). In "Angel One," the Federation became anxious from just deep-space scans of Romulan vessels mobilizing near the Neutral Zone.
Yes, but they also had enough solid information for Data to calculate TO THE MINUTE how long the border outpost and USS Berlin could withstand the Romulan attack. That would need a lot of solid information.

Originally it was going to be the Ferengi until they didn't quite work out as villains, and the matter was not helped by the script of The Neutral Zone.
Interesting. They should have stuck with the Ferengi anyway. It's not like they would have been featured in the episode. Ah well.
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Old June 29 2013, 08:02 PM   #26
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Later episodes of TNG kind of ignore that fact from The Neutral Zone. Hell, The Neutral Zone itself contradicted Angel One which implied the Federation and the Romulans were on the verge of war.
The 53-year period of Romulan isolationism may be in regards to no diplomatic contact (or communications period) with the Romulans during that time, but they were still perceived as a threat nevertheless from past history (the most recent events being the Khitomer massacre and the loss of the Enterprise-C). In "Angel One," the Federation became anxious from just deep-space scans of Romulan vessels mobilizing near the Neutral Zone.
Yes, but they also had enough solid information for Data to calculate TO THE MINUTE how long the border outpost and USS Berlin could withstand the Romulan attack. That would need a lot of solid information.
Which they could easily get from long-range sensor scans and subsequent tactical assessments. The Romulans no doubt were able to do the same from their side.

The really big surprise in "The Neutral Zone" was that the Romulans had finally broken their silence and the revelation of the D'deridex-class warbird, IMO.
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Old June 29 2013, 10:26 PM   #27
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Jarok actually commanded the Romulan forces at Norkan, but given how long Vulcans and Romulans can live, that's not a problem. For Picard, the Norkan Campaign could be something that was a historical event that he studied.
That's my understanding as well. It's stated in "The Defector" that Jarok commanded the Norkan Campaign/Massacre. It's not clear exactly when it happened, but I never got the impression that Picard was present for those events. They may have happened before his lifetime or during his childhood.

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Old July 2 2013, 05:30 AM   #28
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Portal wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Earth and Romulus went to war during the 22nd-Century.
Alright, so what do we know about this war. I'm very interested to learn about it. I'll try to get ahold of the "Balance of Terror" episode and watch it carefully.
If it has not been said already said the Romulan war was going to be the next season(s) of Enterprise before it got the axe
I think that is what the season 5 project for Enterprise is going to cover on Netflix, (at least I hope)
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Old July 2 2013, 02:02 PM   #29
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

It is also quite possible that the Norkan Colony massacre (and the infamous defeat at Cheron) took place mere months before "The Defector".

I mean, it would be quite difficult to get information on who did what in a conflict long ago, when Romulans had had fewer opportunities to share information with the Federation. But after "The Neutral Zone", the Romulans might have gone quite active and interactive in an all-new strategy: "TNZ" did mark their first open onscreen attempt at cooperation with Starfleet, although there was probably a lot of covert cooperation going on during ST6:TUC already... The identity of the man who massacred Norkan might well be "public", UFP-accessible knowledge under the new strategy.

A massacre or two between "TNZ" and "The Defector" would be quite in line with the overall Romulan policy of unapologetic aggression at the time. The Star Empire was quite ready to risk war with all sorts of schemes, several times including the destruction of the Federation Flagship. Indeed, it seemed to desire war on several occasions, although perhaps only as part of a bluff of some sort. Jarok's own belief that another destructive war would be unwelcome is unlikely to have reflected the actual thinking of the Romulan leaders at the time.

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