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Old July 1 2013, 07:01 PM   #91
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Earlier I blasted Kirk for violating the PD in "A Taste of Armageddon"...I just reread the teaser transcript, and Ambassador Fox doesn't 'lightly suggest he has command of this mission'...he drags Kirk kicking and screaming into the situation. Fox says 'thousands of lives have been lost on this route in the last 20 years*,lives that could have been saved if we had a treaty port**...and we mean to have it"

It's Starfleet that is blasting away the Prime Directive, all Kirk is doing giving Starfleet what they wanted.

*Who knows why. Orion Pirates, dangerous anomalies.

** F**k those natives, right Starfleet?
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Old July 1 2013, 09:18 PM   #92
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Did the Dominion dismantle Cardassia's ship?
They hadn't won yet.
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Old July 1 2013, 09:28 PM   #93
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
And that's totally not like slavery.
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Old July 1 2013, 09:30 PM   #94
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Belz... wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
And that's totally not like slavery.
Yea.

I think it says something about how little we value freedom people need to equivocate my post with why that's bad.



It's a totalitarian government. The fact it makes really good ice cream and won't go on random massacres is not a reason to like it.
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Old July 1 2013, 09:42 PM   #95
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Belz... wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
And that's totally not like slavery.
No, oppression and slavery are different. Slaves can't speak freely, but they also can't determine their own movements or dispose of their own labor. Unless you can show that subjects of the dominion could not do these things, their enslavement was more euphamism. If there is any way it could be said that the dominiom practiced slavery, it was with the Jemhadar, who resemble Wolof slaves.
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Old July 1 2013, 09:44 PM   #96
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
No, oppression and slavery are different. Slaves can't speak freely, but they also can't determine their own movements or dispose of their own labor. Unless you can show that subjects of the dominion could not do these things, their enslavement was more euphamism. If there is any way it could be said that the dominiom practiced slavery, it was with the Jemhadar, who resemble Wolof slaves.
When the government is the slavemasters, it's serfdom.

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Old July 1 2013, 09:49 PM   #97
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

In serfdom, the peasant is tied to the land or to the lord via the manor house. The government's role is secondary.
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Old July 1 2013, 10:53 PM   #98
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Sran wrote: View Post
Weren't they asked for help, though? It's my understanding that if another goverment asks for Federation aid that they're allowed to step in and provide whatever asisstance they can. Dukat contacted Sisko to ask for help in getting the Detapa Council members to safety. I suppose Sisko could have said no, but that's not Starfleet's style.--Sran
That is true, but sometimes the whole thing seems unfair and uneven. If I'm not mistaken, Sisko went out of his way to contact Cardassia first, then reacted when Dukat asked for help.

They engaged the Klingons with force, sent ships, everything.

And Cardassia and the Federation had a pretty shaky relationship with Cardassia's plots and violating treaties between them.

When Gowron requested help from Picard based on their treaty, he flat out refused, (based on the internal affairs doctrine) but later he and Starfleet gave indirect military assistance.

The Bajorans were brutally oppressed by the Cardassians. One refugee said he resented the Federation because they stood by as innocent bystanders were massacred, knowing full well what was happening.

One real life example may be why the U.S or U.N will intervene in some affairs, but not take any action in others for examples like Darfar, Croatia, Libya or Syria.

What makes The Fed (or even US) decide to intervene militarily in some affairs, yet ignore or do little in others?
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Old July 1 2013, 11:07 PM   #99
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
In serfdom, the peasant is tied to the land or to the lord via the manor house. The government's role is secondary.
No, the lord IS the government. Which is that you are the property thereof.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:34 PM   #100
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
What makes The Fed (or even US) decide to intervene militarily in some affairs, yet ignore or do little in others?
Don't have a great answer to that question. In the end, the Prime Directive seems like it's not any different from other rules in that it's open to interpretation. Every officer must decide how and when it actually applies, knowing that it's often easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Sisko's actions could have been interpreted as a violation of the PD: OTOH, the Klingons were stationed at DS9 just before they went into Cardassian space, so Sisko could have argued that they'd already dragged (albeit indirectly) Starfleet into the situation.

The discussion in the ward room is interesting. Dax doesn't say that they're violating the PD by warning Cardassia. She says, "The Klingons are still our allies. If we warned the Cardassians, we'd be betraying them."

O'Brien follows that with a comment about the Klingons being right. Whether that's because he actually believed it or because of his own hatred of Cardassians is something I don't know the answer to. Regardless, it's clear that no one sees helping Dukat as a violation of Federation rules. Like anything else in fiction, the PD is probably just another plot-device used to advance the story rather than being an actual rule.

--Sran
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Old July 2 2013, 11:18 AM   #101
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
No, oppression and slavery are different.
It's different like vanilla and strawberry are different, but they are both flavours of ice cream.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:20 AM   #102
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
That is true, but sometimes the whole thing seems unfair and uneven. If I'm not mistaken, Sisko went out of his way to contact Cardassia first, then reacted when Dukat asked for help.

[...]

What makes The Fed (or even US) decide to intervene militarily in some affairs, yet ignore or do little in others?
Politics. Pragmatic considerations. The Cardassians could make good allies, etc. As noted before, DS9 was a deconstruction of the Trek philosophies. The Federation was just being practical.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:22 AM   #103
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

In TOS the PD was about interference, not contact per say. In TNG the PD was largely a paternalistic and condescending piece of garbage.
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Old July 2 2013, 02:06 PM   #104
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Yeah I wonder what changed in-universe about it between the two.
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Old July 2 2013, 06:07 PM   #105
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
In TOS the PD was about interference, not contact per say. In TNG the PD was largely a paternalistic and condescending piece of garbage.
I'll never get why the TNG PD is so despised. What, you think the Feds should go around handing out Warp Cores to Cavemen or something?
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