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Old June 30 2013, 11:07 PM   #76
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Sran wrote: View Post
Prescisely. It's the reason why the Federation wasn't allowed to support Gowron's petition to lead the High Council in 2367. Starfleet considered the matter "an internal affair of the Klingon Empire," so Picard wasn't allowed to intervene once his duties as Arbiter of Succession were finished.

He was allowed to stop the Romulans from shipping supplies to the Duras sisters because they were interfering in Klingon politics, but that was as far as Starfleet allowed him to go.

--Sran
Privately, I think the PD is largely up to interpretation. The whole fact Starfleet wouldn't support Bajor against the Cardassians seems like [insert expletive].
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Old July 1 2013, 02:27 AM   #77
Nightdiamond
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Privately, I think the PD is largely up to interpretation. The whole fact Starfleet wouldn't support Bajor against the Cardassians seems like [insert expletive].
Unlike when they instantly came to Cardassia's rescue with military force when the Klingons threatened to invade.

In fact they came to Cardassia's rescue twice.


RE; Dear Doctor--the more you analyze this episode the wronger it is.

I don't get the logic--just because a disease is genetic based, that means it was meant to be an evolutionary dead end and no one should bother finding a cure.

That sounds more like more like a philosophy than actual medical science.

Phlox said he already found a cure for the disease.

If you can find a disease for a cure, then it wasn't an evolutionary dead end.

What would Starfleet do if earth had an epidemic that was hard to cure? They'd find a cure and use it.

I think I would rather have a Crusher or Julian working on the case if it were my planet that had such a disease.

The only point I do get is the worry that the one culture was exploiting the other.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:31 AM   #78
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Privately, I think the PD is largely up to interpretation. The whole fact Starfleet wouldn't support Bajor against the Cardassians seems like [insert expletive].
I'm sure that's the case, but can you really blame Starfleet for that? Even the Federation has to prioritize. Romulans mucking with the Klingon High Council is a bigger deal than Cardassians supplying arms to a Bajoran resistance movement.

I don't mean to suggest that giving up the wormhole wouldn't have been a big deal for Starfleet, but war against the combined forces of the Klingons (under the Duras sisters) and the Romulans would have been much more danagerous. Picard had the right idea when he argued for blocking Romulan supply lines. Sisko had the right idea, too. He just used a different approach in exposing the Cardassians involvement in the Circle.

--Sran
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Old July 1 2013, 02:35 AM   #79
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Unlike when they instantly came to Cardassia's rescue with military force when the Klingons threatened to invade.

In fact they came to Cardassia's rescue twice.
Weren't they asked for help, though? It's my understanding that if another goverment asks for Federation aid that they're allowed to step in and provide whatever asisstance they can. Dukat contacted Sisko to ask for help in getting the Detapa Council members to safety. I suppose Sisko could have said no, but that's not Starfleet's style.

--Sran
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Old July 1 2013, 02:35 AM   #80
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I'm sure that's the case, but can you really blame Starfleet for that? Even the Federation has to prioritize. Romulans mucking with the Klingon High Council is a bigger deal than Cardassians supplying arms to a Bajoran resistance movement.
Mostly it annoyed because the Feddies were at war with the Cardassians at the time.
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Old July 1 2013, 03:33 AM   #81
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I'd also add The Offspring for TNG. About the morality of forcibly stripping away someone's child, when he's been a perfectly model parent. And about an android's rights: do they have the right to create a child. Excellent outing
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Old July 1 2013, 03:44 AM   #82
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Stoek wrote: View Post
Spectre Of The Gun

From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...

And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.

It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Didn't they force contact in The Corbomite Maneuver and A Taste of Armageddon?
There are a host of episodes of TOS where the Federation and Starfleet appear to be forcing Kirk to go somewhere and break the prime directive. There are also some episodes where Kirk himself decides to break the prime directive for no apparent reason or a bad reason.

Upon further viewings, you can start to see Kirk & the Federation as the bad guy.
I know we debate and debate and debate Kirk and the PD, and I can see the arguments saying how Kirk is all right in the case of The Apple (I think they're wrong but...) but here? How..HOW can you not say that Kirk, upon his own authority, destroying those computers and changing the entire political relationship of those two planets is not a violation?

The PD does apply to post-warp societies. It's not just about contamination, it's also about interfering in the politics of other worlds.

the TOS PD was much more flexible and defensible a concept than the TNG PD. The TNG PD became fundamentalist nonsense, that if applied literally, would mean that the Federation would have to be isolationist to adhere to it.
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Old July 1 2013, 07:24 AM   #83
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:46 AM   #84
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.
Uhhh...no. Kirk and company were dragged in chains in Bread and Circuses and it still applied. Just because 400 people are threatened doesn't give Kirk the right to change the status quo between billions of people. Not to mention Kirk was warned off. Just because Ambassador Ironside tells him to proceed doesn't justify bringing two planets to Defcon 1.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:53 AM   #85
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I great the impression the Dominion is a very "carrot and stick" form of government. The Vorta are designed to be pleasant and avuncular even if they're plotting genocide. The Jem'hadar are extreme professionals at all times.

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
And of course no freedom of speech, no free press, no fair legal system, and such.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:22 PM   #86
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I think someone mentioned "Devil in the Dark", but I'd like to agree with that one.
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Old July 1 2013, 06:36 PM   #87
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.
Not really. Gowron requested aid during the civil war, under the terms of the alliance, and still Starfleet refused, citing the PD.

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.
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Old July 1 2013, 06:41 PM   #88
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.
Am I missing something? I just viewed the section in which Gowron's ship is attacked in orbit, and Picard makes no reference to the Prime Directive. He only states non-involvement in internal affairs. I thought that the Prime Directive referred only to primitive (pre-warp) societies. The question of Federation involvement in the domestic affairs of other governments need no be reflected in it. Was something retconned?
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Old July 1 2013, 06:47 PM   #89
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.
Not really. Gowron requested aid during the civil war, under the terms of the alliance, and still Starfleet refused, citing the PD.

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.
Gowron was not recognized by everyone in the empire as the legitimate leader of the Klingon Empire. Yes, Picard arbitrated for him but that Duras had enough supporters to challenge him in such a way shows that this wasn't what all the Klingons thought. If the Feds helped out someone who was not recognized at the legitimate leader by the people and more or less "installed" him it would ultimately damage Gowron's position and be seen as the Feds interfering in an internal dispute that the Klingon people did not wholly want them interfering in.
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Old July 1 2013, 06:53 PM   #90
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And of course no freedom of speech, no free press, no fair legal system, and such.
Like I said, the Cardassians thought they were the smart ones until they were ordered to die by the millions.
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