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Old June 29 2013, 12:27 AM   #16
stj
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Most TV and movie scifi with time travel admits changes in the timeline, and delight in the paradoxes. It's rare to find one rigorous enough to limit itself to a causal loop, which may be wild but isn't a paradox. Voyager is quite typical in the way it admits some paradoxes while excluding others, seemingly unaware of its inconsistency. I'm not sure why Endgame, one of many time paradox stories, is somehow so offensive. Until that is explained, I'll just move on.

Nor am I quite sure why it is so necessary that the Borg be unstoppable. Adaptability was always emphasized in the presentation of the Borg, and the Borg adapted quite rapidly in this episode. They were never presented in Voyager as invincible. In any event, the Voyager episode that showed them at their weakest was Survival Instinct, which is never cited as an example of the error of making the Borg conveniently weak. Since it is evident this is not a serious objection, I'll just move on.

The Admiral's attempt to change the past her way was rejected, and she dies, so it is unclear how her position on changing timelines was endorsed. It is especially unclear why the episode was demonstrate in some fashion that she was right.

It is clearly stated that the spacetime travel was to be one way, and there would be no return. Therefore, clearly the Admiral had to travel to a point in their journey where there was a way to come back. The Admiral was in no position to agree to Q on either occasion. The decayed wormhole still would have been decayed. And diverting Voyager away from saving that planet from the Ferengi would have been loathesome.

Quite aside from the fact that somehow interfering with the original capture of the Voyager and the Maquis would have meant sacrificing both Kes and Seven of Nine, and Icheb too, what could the Admiral have done? The Caretaker reached out over seventy lightyears to grab up Torres and Kim for reproductive purposes. She couldn't have gone back to the Alpha quadrant and warned the Maquis, who were after all hiding as well as they could. It's not even certain whether the displacement wave wouldn't have simply struck at Earth if Voyager had sacrificed the Maquis!

As to interfering at the Array, there's no way she could count on overcoming the Caretaker. After the Caretaker's death, events were forced by the Kazon. How could the Admiral know that her shuttle would be enough to destroy all the Kazon reinforcements, even if should she want to resort to such violent methods?

(By the way, the acquisition of Seven of Nine was probably the key event in Voyager acquiring enough tech to defeat the Borg on its original trek. Terminating the journey without Seven of Nine would begin a timeline in which the only source of that tech would be a future that didn't happen, a full blown paradox. As is, the new timeline had a wealth of data to use against the Borg, including the Infinite Regress and Collective/Child's Play weapons. A possibility, for what it's worth.)

The Admiral made it clear that she needed to push the agenda to keep the Captain off balance. That alone explains why she didn't go back early enough to save Carey. And the episode showed us that keeping the Borg off balance was at issue as well. I don't understand why people ask the question. Not liking the answer is another thing.

Two last issues: C/7, and the resolution. C/7 was present since Human Error, which I thought was far more offensive. It played a much smaller part in Endgame and can't be such a big deal. Insofar as Voyager had a continuing story, it was about getting home. The series ended at the resolution, the climax of the story. The rest was basically showed to us and will not be essentially different: Paris and Torres have a baby who grows up to go into Starfleet, the Doctor practices medicine and sex, Barclay doesn't stutter, Tuvok has a dignified old age, Janeway becomes an admiral, Kim becomes a captain, etc. I really cannot believe that people were disappointed at not seeing Kim with his family, or Seven with hers. After all, we had seen those meetings in previous episodes!
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Old June 29 2013, 12:37 AM   #17
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

stj wrote: View Post
Two last issues: C/7, and the resolution. C/7 was present since Human Error, which I thought was far more offensive.
What did you think was offensive about Human Error?
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Old June 29 2013, 12:50 AM   #18
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

I say, NOT awesome. Lots of problems.
But mainly, the whole part about getting home (the whole point of the series).

It starts out with the near-impossible, Janeway and the Voyager and most of the crew *did* get home after all, within their lifetimes. They've gone on with their lives and so on.

Not too bad, considering the odds were they'd never make it back to Earth.

But that's not good enough for Janeway. It's not as good an outcome as she'd prefer. So let's time travel and alter history so she can personally get a better outcome than the one that panned out.

Really?

And mainly because Janeway didn't like the roll call of "who lived/who died"?

She's gotta fix it for Seven and Chatokay, but not for Carey and Hogan and Stadi?

Bad enough Janeway does this--even after the ship and crew DID get home anyway--but VOY already did eps with the villain Annorax altering time and history for the sake of his personal outcome.

So Janeway does the SAME THING as a big heroic finish for the series?

NOT awesome.
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Old June 29 2013, 01:07 AM   #19
stj
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

teacake wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Two last issues: C/7, and the resolution. C/7 was present since Human Error, which I thought was far more offensive.
What did you think was offensive about Human Error?
Chakotay in Human Error was supposed to be a holographic simulation. Yet the way he treated Seven was oppressive, maybe even brutal. This strained willing suspension of disbelief (why would any woman program a man to act like that?) treating holo-Chakotay as the real thing still made him look bad. It was far too reminiscent of his tough love (cracked) approach to Torres' depression in Extreme Risk.
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Old June 29 2013, 01:29 AM   #20
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

She's course, obstructive and blunt. We think it's funny, but her victimization is justification for otherwise acting like an asshole for a moment. This is how Seven thought people would treat her like, if she tried not to be an asshole all the time saying "I am Borg" everytime a mere human acts like a dingus.

All little girl's have princess fantasies.

No, Seven is not an adult woman in her brain in a couple important places where it counts.

Anika has a childlike understanding of many things.
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Old June 30 2013, 05:52 PM   #21
Keith1701
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Jeri wrote: View Post
Endgame was awesome!
Yes, it was. And I luv the Admiral. Glad she got back on the brew, though; that was a close one.
Yes, it was and great way to end the series.
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Old June 30 2013, 06:03 PM   #22
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Well that's debatable.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:44 AM   #23
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
And THAT's what's wrong with Chakotay and Seven Hooking up.
Chakotay and Seven hooking up is ALWAYS wrong in my book.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:48 AM   #24
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

See that's the thing.. all these Chakotay fans who think he is hot hot hot and would love to wake up in his bed deny 7 the very thing they wish for themselves. It's sad.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:52 AM   #25
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Besides my hate for C/7 (I really don't care if other people like it, to each their own. I just think it was random. We never actually see Seven and Chakotay actually begin dating. Human Error doesn't count since Chakotay was a hologram, but I digresss...) I have other reasons for disliking it.

As a stand alone episode...if it wasn't the last episode AND if they didn't shove C/7 in at the last possible moment...I might have liked it.

But I wanted to see them back on Earth. And not at some reunion where Tuvok is so mentally unstable he couldn't attend. And not in a timeline where Chakotay and Seven are dead.

To be honest, I liked the Admiral. I did. I didn't even mind the time travel THAT much. Do I think it should have been done another way? Yes. But, that wasn't why I dislike it.

I dislike it because we get NO resolution other than the fact that we know the Borg are pretty much done for (at least at the moment) and that they do "get home" all in one piece.

But...we never get to see them all home. We don't know what happens to them. It would have been nice to show them landing and being down on Earth again and everyone being happy or something.

Also...it pissed me off that THEY DON'T EVEN TELL US WHY CHAKOTAY DIED IN THAT FIRST TIMELINE.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:55 AM   #26
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

teacake wrote: View Post
See that's the thing.. all these Chakotay fans who think he is hot hot hot and would love to wake up in his bed deny 7 the very thing they wish for themselves. It's sad.
It's not that I love Chakotay.

Seven is way more awesome than Chakotay. Better character, better lines, better humor.

But I just didn't see the chemistry between them AT ALL.

I would have rather had nearly any pairing other than that.

Yes, I wanted Janeway to end up with Chakotay because for some reason I just think they had chemistry or at least they knew each other for a long time, had an established relationship and rapport...and come on, Janeway went through enough already. Engaged twice and both of them gone. She deserved to be happy. Even if it wasn't Chakotay...I just didn't like that they ended her arc with her being alone. I just didn't enjoy that. I think she deserved more than that.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:58 AM   #27
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Also...it pissed me off that THEY DON'T EVEN TELL US WHY CHAKOTAY DIED IN THAT FIRST TIMELINE.

7 exhausted him and when he went on a spirit quest to try and revive himself 7 WAS HIS SPIRIT ANIMAL!!!

She had assimilated him so hard that there was no escape.

And then he died.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:00 AM   #28
Captain Kathryn
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

teacake wrote: View Post
Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
Also...it pissed me off that THEY DON'T EVEN TELL US WHY CHAKOTAY DIED IN THAT FIRST TIMELINE.

7 exhausted him and when he went on a spirit quest to try and revive himself 7 WAS HIS SPIRIT ANIMAL!!!

She had assimilated him so hard that there was no escape.

And then he died.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:03 AM   #29
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Great episode.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:04 AM   #30
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post

Yes, I wanted Janeway to end up with Chakotay because for some reason I just think they had chemistry or at least they knew each other for a long time, had an established relationship and rapport...and come on, Janeway went through enough already. Engaged twice and both of them gone. She deserved to be happy. Even if it wasn't Chakotay...I just didn't like that they ended her arc with her being alone. I just didn't enjoy that. I think she deserved more than that.
I agree, and that is why I have choked down the books, put on a happy face and wish her well.
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