RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,362
Posts: 5,446,271
Members: 24,968
Currently online: 460
Newest member: LaciFalor

TrekToday headlines

Kruge Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Two Trek Actors In Green Room
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Trek UglyDolls First Look
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

New Star Trek Select Action Figure
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

Trek Actors In Elsa & Fred
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

The Red Shirt Diaries #9
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Greenwood Cast In Truth
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Cumberbatch In Talks For Strange
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Two New Trek Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Oct 27

Meaney On Playing Historical Figure Durant
By: T'Bonz on Oct 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 30 2013, 08:09 PM   #151
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
^As I've said, I really, really do not think their motive in casting Cumberbatch was to favor white actors over nonwhite ones. In fact, Orci has pretty much confirmed that they were trying to avoid the racial stereotype of the dark-skinned terrorist. So I think that in trying to avoid racial discrimination in that sense, they accidentally stepped into a different kind of discrimination quagmire. Good intentions leading to an unfortunate result.

I think part of the problem is that they're hamstrung in casting a lot of roles due to the conceit of this being an alternate timeline rather than a pure continuity reboot. Comic-book movies are free to change characters' ethnicity and correct the white dominance of the past (or replace Jimmy Olsen with Jenny as Man of Steel did), but these guys are stuck when casting roles like Christopher Pike, Carol Marcus and her father, and the like, because the alternate-timeline premise demands that they bear a resemblance to the originals. If that weren't the case, then maybe the casting of a white Khan/Harrison could've been offset by casting the Marcuses differently, or casting Pike differently in both movies. Heck, with a wholesale reboot we maybe could've had, say, a black McCoy, a female Sulu or Chekov, maybe an Indian Scotty (there are lots of people of South Asian ancestry in the UK). But as it is, they're kind of stuck with the racial and gender biases of the original series' casting, and thus can't be as progressive as Bad Robot has been in several of its other productions.
Even though I thought the alternate universe idea was and is a brilliant way to tell new stories while not completely eschewing the Prime Universe that I grew up in so to speak, I think that a complete reboot would help avoid some of the problems that this new iteration of Trek has run into.

As for Khan if this had been a complete reboot, I likely would've still grumbled about Cumberbatch being Khan but would've found it more tolerable since he isn't supposed to be the same guy that Montalban played. And I do think the idea of mixing up the races/ethnicities of various characters as offsets could've been intriguing to see. Who knows if I would've agreed with all of the changes but I would've been willing to see how it all came together.
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 08:13 PM   #152
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
I think the problem with Khan as the villain in <i>Into Darkness</i> is actually the opposite of the humanizing, though. The casting issue is one, but I actually thought making the character into Khan turned 'Harrison' from "man victimized while being the victimizer" into "monster from earth's history" and detracted from the ambiguity of his role.

And that the significance of the name would only apply to people who knew the character's background (and him being an evil dictator superman from the past)
I see where you are going. And if you base him solely off TWOK, which I'm sure most people do, the monster label fits better, IMO. But if you take it back to Space Seed, Khan was certainly a villain but he wasn't portrayed as a monster per se. He certainly was capable of doing monstrous things but he wasn't genocidal like he was portrayed in Into Darkness. However the perhaps widespread but maybe vague notion of Khan as villain perhaps does inform the audience this guy is evil or beyond redemption, that he doesn't have a point of view that should be seriously entertained.

I also think turning Harrison into Khan was a mistake for other reasons. It made it too easy for the filmmakers to do a soft remake of TWOK and it required some fore knowledge of who Khan was for the reveal to really have any impact. So I think it lessened the possibilities for Harrison as a character and took him and the story into more predictable waters.
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 08:38 PM   #153
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Well it's not as if they HAD to make the character Khan, which I think is actually part of the disappointing aspect. The story itself could've worked with it being some different augment, given that the importance of it being a super soldier genocidaire from the distant past was...just about zero.
Indeed. Damon Lindelof insisted on doing Khan, over Orci's objections. Orci convinced them to break the story as a self-contained piece with an original antagonist before deciding whether to make the character Khan, because he wanted to be sure the story could stand on its own for new viewers without depending on prior knowledge. Once they'd done that, they decided they could make the story work with Khan in the role.


DarKush wrote: View Post
But since they went the Khan route I think they should've cast a nonwhite actor. I think Khan is popular enough name/brand/character, if not his actual story, that it trumps him being a run of the mill brown skinned terrorist.

Plus Khan being a villain with some positive traits might have also undermined the dehumanized stereotype. Perhaps having a person of color back as Khan might dredge up those kind of vile feelings, but it might also present an intelligent, formidable brown skinned person that fans can possibly admire and understand. That might have changed perceptions in a way of turning Khan into a white guy, which avoids the issue, have not done.
You could well be right. After all, Harrison/Khan wasn't the real terrorist here; Marcus was. At least until the climax, he was a relatively sympathetic antagonist, acting to defend his people from the real monster, Marcus, who was trying to use them to start a war. That could've been a nice way of subverting terrorist stereotypes -- to show us a dark-skinned guy who seems to be a terrorist and then turn it around. Although that would've worked better if they'd left out the massive urban destruction in the climax -- but then, they should've done so anyway, because it really didn't contribute anything to the story.


DarKush wrote: View Post
I also think turning Harrison into Khan was a mistake for other reasons. It made it too easy for the filmmakers to do a soft remake of TWOK and it required some fore knowledge of who Khan was for the reveal to really have any impact. So I think it lessened the possibilities for Harrison as a character and took him and the story into more predictable waters.
Actually, aside from the gratuitous death-scene references, I didn't feel it was a remake of TWOK in any way. On the contrary, I felt it was a wholly new take on Khan and (casting aside) a much better Khan story than TWOK gave us. I mean, TWOK pretty much ignored everything that defined Khan as an interesting antagonist and reduced him to a cookie-cutter revenge-obsessed maniac. This movie used Khan's intelligence, his cunning, his compassion and loyalty to his fellow Augments, and the potentials of his nature and backstory in ways that TWOK didn't even try to do. And it actually let Khan interact closely with Kirk and establish an onscreen relationship with him, rather than going the whole movie without ever letting the hero and villain meet face-to-face. That's the whole reason I'm okay with the villain being Khan after hoping for years that it wouldn't be.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 10:33 PM   #154
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

I think the issue is further complicated by the fact Khan's ethnicity in "Space Seed" is a pun. Albeit, one you have to think about.

Specifically, Khan is an Aryan.

*rimshot*

I'm fairly sure that would go over audiences heads today.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 11:48 PM   #155
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher,

I did say it was a soft remake . But I think you make a good point. I don't think Into Darkness is a total remake of TWOK but it does take some lines verbatim from the film-perhaps as an homage-and it does its own version of the engineering chamber death scene-as well as the infamous Khan yell. I felt all of those things felt like pale imitations that were largely unearned. To be fair, where Khan is concerned I think Into Darkness uses both Space Seed and TWOK.

It seems to me that ID Khan is a mixture of the two. As for TWOK I think Khan as a vengeance fueled maniac works just fine. I saw TWOK years before I saw Space Seed. It works even better for me after I saw Space Seed and saw more fully Khan's character arc, of how this smart, charismatic guy had descended into an embittered, hollowed out vengeful shell of himself.

But not taking Space Seed into account, TWOK Khan was a compelling villain who also used his intelligence and showed just a hint of his super strength. His fanaticism made him formidable and terrifying. He actually beat Kirk when he left him on the Genesis station, but his ego and his need for revenge blinded him. Similar flaws also plagued ID Khan. ID Khan did show more concern for his crew but TWOK Khan did lament his wife as well as the fallen condition of his people and that helped fuel his desire for vengeance similar to how the belief that his crew had been murdered by Spock drove ID Khan to make a suicide run at San Francisco/Starfleet HQ.

I didn't mind Kirk and Khan not meeting in TWOK. It actually made the movie stand out and it seems quaint now in this age of mega confrontations and beat downs. I think the structure of TWOK made the characters focus more on their wits and made the final starship battle tense and exciting in a way that Kirk facing down against Kruge or Soran were not. Not having the two face off was also a good thing for Kirk because as we saw in ID and in the Enterprise Augment arc an aging Kirk probably wouldn't have stood much of a chance against a Khan hellbent on killing him.

Keeping it on starships made it more of an equal footing for Kirk and it forced the writers to not rely on Khan's brute strength or some inexplicable reason for that failing (like it did in Space Seed) for Kirk to get the win. The final battle helped expose how far Khan had fallen, which made him even more tragic for me.

I don't want to say that Cumberbatch didn't do a fine job. I thought he did, though his take on the character was a little too cold and some of his emotions were overwrought. Some of that was the direction and musical score. I mean the music introducing him practically told you he was from the Legion of Doom. In Space Seed and TWOK I felt Khan's assertiveness, charisma, and arrogance more.
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:03 AM   #156
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

DarKush wrote: View Post
I don't think Into Darkness is a total remake of TWOK but it does take some lines verbatim from the film-perhaps as an homage-and it does its own version of the engineering chamber death scene-as well as the infamous Khan yell. I felt all of those things felt like pale imitations that were largely unearned.
But that's far from a remake. Those are a few moments stuck into a story that, overall, is completely unlike that of TWOK. And I think it was a mistake to include them, partly because they preoccupy people's attention discommensurately to their actual importance in the story.


I didn't mind Kirk and Khan not meeting in TWOK. It actually made the movie stand out and it seems quaint now in this age of mega confrontations and beat downs. I think the structure of TWOK made the characters focus more on their wits and made the final starship battle tense and exciting in a way that Kirk facing down against Kruge or Soran were not. Not having the two face off was also a good thing for Kirk because as we saw in ID and in the Enterprise Augment arc an aging Kirk probably wouldn't have stood much of a chance against a Khan hellbent on killing him.
I don't care about who would win in a fight. Part of the reason we watch movies and TV shows is to watch actors perform. And when actors perform together, when they're exchanging dialogue face to face and can play off and reinforce one another's energy, it can be a lot more interesting to watch than two entirely separate performances filmed weeks apart and cut together by the editor. I would've liked to see Shatner and Montalban play a scene together, to see the chemistry between two talented actors.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:22 AM   #157
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I think the issue is further complicated by the fact Khan's ethnicity in "Space Seed" is a pun. Albeit, one you have to think about.

Specifically, Khan is an Aryan.
Which was essentially Nick Meyer's take on it when the production of ST II hired blond Judson Scott - and Deney Terrio's peroxided Chippendale strippers - as Khan's men.

In his "To Reign in Hell" novel, Greg Cox even explains how the babies born to Khan's multiracial "Space Seed" followers all end up resembling blond Aryans.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:23 AM   #158
DarKush
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Christopher,

The things they took from TWOK for Into Darkness did pull me out of the film and came off as less honoring the other film than another attempt to bask in its glow, which is something also arguably done with Star Trek 2009.

I can understand your desire to see Shatner and Montalban interact and I wouldn't have minded seeing that myself, though I think the movie works the way it was constructed. And I don't think there could've been an interaction between the two without an altercation. I don't see how the story could be played any differently since Khan was so far gone.

TWOK Khan wanted to hurt Kirk. And being smart enough to not fall for Kirk's challenge to beam down to the Genesis station, Khan decided the best way was to strike at Kirk's friends and ship while he was helpless to do anything about it. I thought Shatner captured the rage of his impotence pretty well, even if his shout was ripe for parody. It was a very powerful moment back then even if it made me chuckle. As for Quinto my eyes just rolled at his homage.
DarKush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 12:27 AM   #159
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

For me, I just assumed the genetically engineered superbeings had DNA taken from all races on Earth. Which is a nice jab at Hitler's ideology and given how DNA *ACTUALLY* works would be closer to how you'd make a superbeing.

But yea, for me, I hope any future novels just say Khan underwent cosmetic surgery.

From a Doylist perspective, "race-lifting" Khan nicely prevents the brown-terrorist archetype and I agree with the producers it was better than having an explicit 9/11 parallel involve a ethnic actor defeated by the very white Spock and Kirk.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 01:22 AM   #160
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I think the issue is further complicated by the fact Khan's ethnicity in "Space Seed" is a pun. Albeit, one you have to think about.

Specifically, Khan is an Aryan.
Which was essentially Nick Meyer's take on it when the production of ST II hired blond Judson Scott - and Deney Terrio's peroxided Chippendale strippers - as Khan's men.

In his "To Reign in Hell" novel, Greg Cox even explains how the babies born to Khan's multiracial "Space Seed" followers all end up resembling blond Aryans.
I think you're missing his point. The use of "Aryan" to refer to blond Nordic types was an error, or a lie, on the Nazis' part. "Aryan" literally means "Iranian" -- the two words are cognates of each other. What happened was that the Nazis mistook a theory of linguistic development -- that the languages of Europe and India branched out from a language spoken by an ancestral population that lived in Iran -- for a theory of racial descent in which a "pure" original race spawned various "degenerated" branches. And they wanted to portray themselves as the pure race, so they called themselves "Aryan" after the name of the ancestral language family even though they were a different ethnic group.

What Charles is pointing out is that the actual Aryan or Indo-Iranian peoples migrated into northern India and their descendants are now the dominant ethnic and linguistic group there; thus, as a presumably Indian Sikh, Khan would be Aryan in a legitimate ethnic or linguistic sense, as opposed to the completely BS sense in which the Nazis used it.


DarKush wrote: View Post
I can understand your desire to see Shatner and Montalban interact and I wouldn't have minded seeing that myself, though I think the movie works the way it was constructed. And I don't think there could've been an interaction between the two without an altercation. I don't see how the story could be played any differently since Khan was so far gone.
I didn't say I didn't want an altercation, I just said it's beside the point of what I did want to see. There are many ways a face-to-face confrontation could've been written. There could've been a fight that Kirk lost. There could've been a fight that Kirk cleverly found a way to win. There could've been a confrontation with one or the other of them captured and confined, like several of the Kirk-Khan scenes in STID. Or they could've chosen to make Khan not be so far gone, so that a calmer exchange between them would've been possible. Just something. Giving actors an opportunity to play off each other is important enough that a way could've been found. (Nemesis managed to give Patrick Stewart and Tom Hardy several scenes together even after their open confrontation began: a scene where Picard was helplessly confined and Shinzon taunted him, a scene where Shinzon projected a solid-seeming hologram into Picard's ready room so Hardy could actually be on the set with Stewart, and a climactic fight scene where Picard was at a definite physical disadvantage. You can find a way if you're sufficiently motivated.)


TWOK Khan wanted to hurt Kirk. And being smart enough to not fall for Kirk's challenge to beam down to the Genesis station, Khan decided the best way was to strike at Kirk's friends and ship while he was helpless to do anything about it.
But you just said that Khan would surely win any fight with the aging Kirk. So why not beam down to face him directly?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 01:36 AM   #161
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

What Charles is pointing out is that the actual Aryan or Indo-Iranian peoples migrated into northern India and their descendants are now the dominant ethnic and linguistic group there; thus, as a presumably Indian Sikh, Khan would be Aryan in a legitimate ethnic or linguistic sense, as opposed to the completely BS sense in which the Nazis used it.
Yeah, I think Khan is a character who works on multiple levels in "Space Seed."

He's a character who nicely rebukes Nazism because he's the literal Superman who actually is smarter, stronger, and more intelligent than regular humans--but he's distinctly not blonde haired-blue eyed Nazi analog. Likewise, as a superhuman we get our crew interacting with them and viewing the condescension from the other side. The fact that Khan is an actual Aryan versus Hitler's awful pseudo-science idea of one just is the icing on the cake.

For me, the message of Space Seed is, "even if the superman exists, he's not any more qualified to rule or oppress us by virtue of his superiority." It's one of my problems with Dear Doctor where the question is supporting superior life-forms at the expense of the inferior. If that were true, **** those whales. Instead, Star Trek says whales are awesome!



Star Trek is about all manner of life having value. It's why I like the fact Vulcans are objectively smarter *AND* stronger than humans.

It also makes a nice statement about khan whose entire justification in ST:ID is that he's superior to everyone around him by virtue of being a savage superman. Then it all falls apart because Spock is stronger and smarter (AND more savage) than Khan. Which means his entire worldview is worthless. Spock doesn't NEED to dominate the weak and, in fact, takes orders from Kirk.

Christopher wrote:
You could well be right. After all, Harrison/Khan wasn't the real terrorist here; Marcus was. At least until the climax, he was a relatively sympathetic antagonist, acting to defend his people from the real monster, Marcus, who was trying to use them to start a war. That could've been a nice way of subverting terrorist stereotypes -- to show us a dark-skinned guy who seems to be a terrorist and then turn it around. Although that would've worked better if they'd left out the massive urban destruction in the climax -- but then, they should've done so anyway, because it really didn't contribute anything to the story.
In a more typical movie, Kirk would track down Khan and proceed to team-up with him against Marcus. I actually think I prefer the subversion, though. Khan, in another movie, would just be your typical "Jack Bauer" hero who is turning against his evil superiors. Instead, Kirk doesn't care about the big picture at all. He's burning with rage over the death of Pike, who is collateral damage to Khan's plan. A nobody who is Kirk's everybody.

It was a nice deconstruction.

Actually, aside from the gratuitous death-scene references, I didn't feel it was a remake of TWOK in any way. On the contrary, I felt it was a wholly new take on Khan and (casting aside) a much better Khan story than TWOK gave us. I mean, TWOK pretty much ignored everything that defined Khan as an interesting antagonist and reduced him to a cookie-cutter revenge-obsessed maniac. This movie used Khan's intelligence, his cunning, his compassion and loyalty to his fellow Augments, and the potentials of his nature and backstory in ways that TWOK didn't even try to do. And it actually let Khan interact closely with Kirk and establish an onscreen relationship with him, rather than going the whole movie without ever letting the hero and villain meet face-to-face. That's the whole reason I'm okay with the villain being Khan after hoping for years that it wouldn't be.
I don't quite agree with the statement about Khan in the TWOK. Khan's revenge was everything to him by that point but I felt he was still an extremely nuanced character. His intelligence, superiority, and ruthlessness were all realized for me--as was I think his sublimated guilt over leading his crew to their destruction. Also, TWOK remembers something that I think every rip-off of it has forgotten--that the individuals seeking revenge should actually have a reason to be mad at the protagonists. ST(2009) comes closest and even it is pretty far-off.

I generally agree with you, though, and think Khan was extremely well-utilized in the film. I'd love to see novels detailing more of this version of Khan as well as their relationship with Admiral Marcus.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Charles Phipps; July 1 2013 at 01:58 AM.
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 01:52 AM   #162
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

[QUOTE=Charles Phipps;8320378]It's one of my problems with Dear Doctor where the question is supporting superior life-forms at the expense of the inferior./quote]

As I've told you elsewhere, that is a completely incorrect and backward reading of the episode. You really need to watch it again or read the transcript. Phlox's position isn't about deeming the Menk superior, but about rejecting the assumption that the Valakians have a superior right to thrive. His decision is to remain neutral and do nothing to alter either species' chances of surviving the process that their evolution has already set in motion. Evolution isn't about superiority or inferiority, it's just about whether a species can adapt to the demands of its environment. Saying one species is more likely to survive is not saying that it's better or more entitled to survive, it's just saying that the impersonal, value-neutral forces of evolution happen to be tending toward a particular outcome. (Yes, Phlox does argue for the Menk's potential, but that's to counter the assumption that only the Valakians deserve consideration, to encourage Archer to consider both sides of the issue.)
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 02:16 AM   #163
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Understood, Christopher.

I respect your opinions and while I disagree, I hope you'll understand I merely have a different interpretation.

PHLOX: I've been studying their genome as well, and I've seen evidence of increasing intelligence. Motor skills, linguistic abilities. Unlike the Valakians they appear to be in the process of an evolutionary awakening. It may take millennia, but the Menk have the potential to become the dominant species on this planet.
ARCHER: And that won't happen as long as the Valakians are around.
PHLOX: If the Menk are to flourish, they need an opportunity to survive on their own.
This is my main problem with the work involved, basically going against what I percieve as Star Trek's guiding principles.

ARCHER: The hell with nature. You're a doctor. You have a moral obligation to help people who are suffering.
PHLOX: I'm also a scientist, and I'm obligated to consider the larger issues. Thirty five thousand years ago, your species co-existed with other humanoids. Isn't that correct?
ARCHER: Go ahead.
PHLOX: What if an alien race had interfered and given the Neanderthals an evolutionary advantage? Fortunately for you, they didn't.
This was another area I really-really hated because I'm a big proponent of neanderthals and human beings eventually interbred to become one race. The whole, "humans eventually annihilated the neanderthals" is the kind of conflict-based science I strongly object to. Even if they did, that would mean nothing other than humans killed the neanderthals and if they died on their own, it means nothing to our ability to live in harmony with other beings.

My answer to Phlox's position is, essentially, "We'd both be here?"

PHLOX: Evolution is more than a theory. It is a fundamental scientific principle. Forgive me for saying so, but I believe your compassion for these people is affecting your judgment.
ARCHER: My compassion guides my judgment.
Yes and evolution is a process of elimination of those who aren't capable of adapting to new environments but technology is just as much a part of the evolutionary process now as animal claws or sight. Corn, itself, has evolved (via animal husbandry but that is also part of evolution) to live in a symbiotic relationship with humans.

What Phlox is advocating here seems to be naturalism and I'm not a big fan of that since it bothers me in both religion (that science interferes with a plan) and science (that humanity is outside of natural processes).

And I may be letting my personal feelings affect the issue but Compassion is an evolutionary advantage.

But until somebody tells me that they've drafted that directive I'm going to have to remind myself every day that we didn't come out here to play God.
And this line bothers me because he's piloting a starship, about as close to God as you're going to get. Archer has interfered in countless cultures both Pre-Warp and otherwise with his choice not to interfere here seeming both arbitrary, hypocritical, and undoing much of the good he's done on other worlds since the cost is so much greater.

Evolution isn't about superiority or inferiority, it's just about whether a species can adapt to the demands of its environment. Saying one species is more likely to survive is not saying that it's better or more entitled to survive, it's just saying that the impersonal, value-neutral forces of evolution happen to be tending toward a particular outcome. (Yes, Phlox does argue for the Menk's potential, but that's to counter the assumption that only the Valakians deserve consideration, to encourage Archer to consider both sides of the issue.)
Yes, but the value-neutral forces of evolution are affected by their choice not to do anything. Choosing not to interfere is a choice by its own. Archer and company choose to deny the cure but there's not much to argue for it other than they're following the Prime Directive without a Prime Directive and choosing to play eugenics tampering because they foresee this as affecting another species' genetic potential.

I won't say more on the subject if you don't have a problem and I appreciate you taking the time to discuss the issue with me.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 03:57 AM   #164
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

I'm not going to debate this with you any further, since it's off-topic.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 04:02 AM   #165
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: Into Darkness and the novelverse [SPOILERS]

Right.

Any case, it's largely a matter of opinion. Sorry for distracting from the Khan topic.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.