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View Poll Results: Did Klingon culture get over-simplified in later eras of Star TreK?
Yes 40 62.50%
No 24 37.50%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 28 2013, 07:31 PM   #61
vulcan redshirt
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

To some extent, the Klingon monoculture must be an effect simply of the types of Klingons shown -to tell a particular story at a particular time. Whenever a warship is shown, there will of course be warriors aboard. When we are shown Klingon leaders, they are all the heads of the ruling families (houses), who seem to operate to some extent like feudal barons of the early middle-ages. The fact that they have a functioning star navy indicates that there must be engineers and builders. A top Klingon chief engineer will surely be just as good an engineer as LaForge or O'Brien, but probably a bit more handy in combat. When a Klingon house is dishonoured, they may lose their lands and wealth, which surely implies that beneathe the ruling class they have a serf population who work those lands and create the produce and wealth, that the nobles just cream off (much like middle age lords).

I would also assume that the Klingons would employ mandatory 'national service' of those who have come of age too (as ranks), and that traditionally, offspring of the ruling houses would become warriors (as officers)- no different from military tradition in some upper class families today. In short, we hardly ever see a non-military Klingon, because Trek writers didn't see an interesting way to use non-military Klingons much.

Which non military Klingons do we see? there's the tribunals that send Kirk and Archer to Rura penthe, Archer's lawyer, Lady Grilka (OK she's the widow of a warrior), the DS9 chef, the inhabitants of Carreya IV (but they are effectively independant) the Duras sisters seem to be renegade ex-warriors but that's about it. all other Klingons we see are warriors, or associated with the ruling houses, which would make them ex-warriors - because these are the Klingons who have contact with Starfleet. Given his status as a minor noble, Worf would have been yet another 'nameless' warrior had he not been orphaned and taken in by the Rozhenko's.

It would have been interesting to meet a Klingon freighter captain, or perhaps merchants passing through DS9 on their way to the Gamma Quadrant to negotiate trade deals before the Dominion War, or even a Klingon engineering team getting warp drive going again after battle damage.

Certainly the Klingon economy did work around money, unlike the Federation, so there would probably be all the 'white-collar' city workers too - but that does not make for an interesting trek story. Who wants to see a Klingon farmer ploughing a field, or a Klingon plumber fixing a bust pipe?
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Old June 28 2013, 08:53 PM   #62
Charles Phipps
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Klingons should be whatever it requires for the story at present. You could do hundreds of stories with Klingons but making them identical to humans is ridiculous since there's no point in having Klingons anymore if they're going to be humans since we have humans for that.

Are Klingons barbarians for having frizzy hair and swords? Not really, not anymore than humans are for their fashion choices. It depends on whether or not they can make warp coil.
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Old June 29 2013, 10:40 PM   #63
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

I think their armour speaks quite a lot about their culture, and how rational it is.
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Old June 30 2013, 07:18 PM   #64
DarKush
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

I didn't read every post in this thread and maybe some already said something similar but I don't think the Into Darkness Klingons are all that different from the TNG-ENT take on Klingons.

For one, there is very little in their scene to suggest much of a difference besides the face masks and heavy coats and we don't know why they are wearing those. Two, if I recall correctly, Uhura tries to appeal to the Klingon leader's sense of honor, which is something in keeping with the Klingons on TNG forward.

I do think the idea of having more variation in the depiction of alien cultures is necessary and a good thing and something Trek should be doing. But to be fair to Trek, there has been some instances where the Klingons' bellicose sense of honor has been lamented (Judgment) questioned (various TNG/DS9 episodes), or subverted (Tacking Into the Wind). I have no problem seeing more development of their culture though, particularly the average Klingons who aren't part of big Houses or on warships.
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Old July 10 2013, 12:27 PM   #65
USS Einstein
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

It occurs to me that we have some proof that a new regime or style of government took control of the Klingon Empire.





In Errand of Mercy, Kor states that "all Klingon officers are monitored" - a state of affairs that I cannot see any earlier or later Klingons having agreed to.

Whatever happened to the Klingon state between ENT and TNG must have been a significant social revolution; presumably some Klingon form of fascism - since the nobility seems to have survived, it couldn't have been some kind of French or Russian revolution.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:12 PM   #66
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

The Klingons didn't seem very stereotypical in Into Darkness. Well, except for the Worf Effect which was definitely present and correct
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Old July 10 2013, 11:18 PM   #67
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

^ lol
Well Klingons have a history of being curb stomped by Augments like Khan. The Augment trilogy in ENT fourth season "Borderland", "Cold Station 12" and "The Augments". Not that the general audience would be privy to such information but it might have been useful to have a line in the film detail the strength levels of the races.

I think these are strength levels of the races. I'm not to sure about Klingons but 2 sounds about right.
If Humans are at 1
Human - 1
Klingon - 2x the strength of an adult human
Vulcan - 3x of humans
Augment - 5x the strength of humans

Just for reference
Orangutans and Gorilla have 6x the strength of an adult human
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Old July 11 2013, 04:18 AM   #68
T'Girl
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
I think their armour speaks quite a lot about their culture, and how rational it is.
Especially when you take into account that their armor seem to be purely ornamental, it doesn't protect against phaser/distuptor fire (which would make the wearing of it sensible). It couldn't even stop a medium sized knife in the hand of a old woman.

All for show.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Human - 1
Klingon - 2x the strength of an adult human
I would disagree. If anything Klingon strength is below the Human average, not above.

I would place them at something like 0.9 of Human. Worf would appear to be stronger than most Klingon, this might be from a more intense work out routine.

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Old July 11 2013, 03:33 PM   #69
TheSubCommander
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
USS Einstein wrote: View Post
I think their armour speaks quite a lot about their culture, and how rational it is.
Especially when you take into account that their armor seem to be purely ornamental, it doesn't protect against phaser/distuptor fire (which would make the wearing of it sensible). It couldn't even stop a medium sized knife in the hand of a old woman.

All for show.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Human - 1
Klingon - 2x the strength of an adult human
I would disagree. If anything Klingon strength is below the Human average, not above.

I would place them at something like 0.9 of Human. Worf would appear to be stronger than most Klingon, this might be from a more intense work out routine.

Klingons are inconsistent, like Romulans. Kruge picked Kirk up by the neck in TSFS, yet a pregnant Kira can throw Klingon warriors around like rag dolls. And, similarly, how many times did Romulans get pwned by Starfleet Fu, yet it wasn't until Star Trek 2009 that it was finally confirmed that they have Vulcan level strength?

I think for Klingons the best we can actually say is Klingons are just have a tougher hide and physiology, but are around the mid to upper limits of human level strength. Unlike Vulcans, Klingons have not really shown strength levels that were impossible for humans.
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Old July 12 2013, 12:29 AM   #70
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

^ Thinking of the way Klingons fought humans in TOS Trouble with Tribbles and DS9 Way of the Warrior. Im inclined to reevaluate my earlier estimate of klingons = 2x human strength. Klingons may be 1 to 1 for humans or possess the potential to surpass human strength levels in they engage in regular strength training exercise.


Also the Romulans in ST09 were all miners. That could accommodate for their increased strength. Since Romulans from TOS-TNG-DS9-ENT were never shown to be physically superior to humans.
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Old July 12 2013, 10:27 AM   #71
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Alien strength has been so inconsistent in Trek. I cringed when Archer punched out Vulcans in Enterprise, and cheered when someone remembered that Romulans should be as strong as Vulcans in STXI.
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Old July 12 2013, 10:44 AM   #72
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

^ Remember when Shinzon gripped Donatra's wrist and she squirmed uncomfortably in his grasp. I have no problems with Romulans being = to Vulcans in strength. However the team before Abrams did a poor job demonstrating it.

Wasn't there some notion that because Romulans live on a different planet instead of Vulcan and after the 200,000 year they eventually lost the enhanced strength?
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Old July 12 2013, 05:41 PM   #73
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Remember when Shinzon gripped Donatra's wrist and she squirmed uncomfortably in his grasp. I have no problems with Romulans being = to Vulcans in strength. However the team before Abrams did a poor job demonstrating it.
Maybe Vulcan/Romulan women didn't have the same large strength that the men did. Did T'Pol ever show Vulcan strength? There were probably times when it would have been useful.

Or it could be that the Vulcans have a similar sexual dimorphism as humans do, in terms of muscle and strength. The females would be 3 times as strong as human females of a similar build...but Donatra doesn't look particularly buff, especially compared to Shinzon.

Wasn't there some notion that because Romulans live on a different planet instead of Vulcan and after the 200,000 year they eventually lost the enhanced strength?
I like to think that, at least at one point, the Romulans and Remans interbred. That would explain why Romulans have ridges, and the Remans look like Romulan Goblins
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Old July 12 2013, 06:08 PM   #74
AllStarEntprise
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

^ Romulan Goblins ROFL

I was drinking a coke and snorted it up my nose. That was too funny
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Old July 18 2013, 08:57 PM   #75
mlk
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Re: Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

Most cultures were stereotyped by the end of Voyager, Klingon yes, but also the Borg. They became plot devices instead of being in the center of a plot. Klingons were buffoons who could only care about honor(but not really)
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