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Old June 29 2013, 10:26 PM   #61
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Wasn't that the supposition of my question: what if they joined the Dominion (not defeated by them)?
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Old June 29 2013, 10:40 PM   #62
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Wasn't that the supposition of my question: what if they joined the Dominion (not defeated by them)?
Well, in that case, I think the Federation would have been permitted to keep its fleet, at least initially. But there's no way to know if they'd have been allowed to do so longterm.

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Old June 29 2013, 10:57 PM   #63
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Belz... wrote: View Post
You think they would've let them keep their fleets ?
I think that was a point. The Dominion pretends to ally with locals then slowly removes their allies weapons and rights once they're finished.

It happens a lot with imperial societies.

The Cardassians think they're getting stuff out of the deal but they're not.
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Old June 30 2013, 12:38 AM   #64
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
You think they would've let them keep their fleets ?
I think that was a point. The Dominion pretends to ally with locals then slowly removes their allies weapons and rights once they're finished.

It happens a lot with imperial societies.

The Cardassians think they're getting stuff out of the deal but they're not.
Depends. The AQ is still a long ways off. The pros of leaving the Cardys and Breen in charge is they don't have to worry about stretching their resources.

The Cons are that typical occupying forces forment tons of chaos and dissension. You need to change the hearts and minds of your enemies, and you can't do that when your troops are raping people.

Now The Breen never exhibited the clusterf**k political intrigue the Cardassians did, but did engage in slave labor.

At the end of the day, it'd probably be best to leave the control up to the Vorta and Jem'hadar, with the Breen being given a substantial place in things.
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Old June 30 2013, 02:23 AM   #65
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

The "Dear Doctor" episode was an odd piece of pseudo scientific reasoning.

The basic idea was that if an alien culture has a certain disease that is killing the entire population, (maybe it's a genetic disease) then it was meant to be, an evolutionary dead end. Decision--do nothing and don't interfere.

If I'm not mistaken the Doctor actually had the cure to the alien's illness, but argued not to use it.

But if a disease is killing a Federation culture, then it's a disease that you must find a cure for to stop it before it does more damage. Decision- find a cure and when you do, use it.

Conclusion (for Federation cultures) - it was a disease and diseases have cures and the first step is to find a cure and use it. WTF ?/

The danger of mixing weird science with some concept of non interference --very weird conclusions.
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Old June 30 2013, 03:50 AM   #66
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I think the problems with "Dear Doctor" can be summarized as following:

1. Star Trek is about the diversity of lifeforms. This is about making a monoculture.

2. Star Trek is about the value of all-life both animal and sentient: This chooses smart people over stupid people.

3. The PD is about a living culture: You can't have a living culture when one is dead.

4. Archer and Phlox aren't so much monsters as acting grossly out of character since both have shown a desire to help pre-warp cultures in far less dire straights.

5. Cultural contamination isn't an issue anymore when the Ferengi already have visited regularly.

6. If the primitives evolving with the other advanced race, what would stop them from doing so without them?

7. If you substituted the closest RL parallel, it would be Native Americans dying out for Europeans to take their place (rather than the high tech vs. low tech depicted in the show)--which is so incredibly offensive I can't even begin to analyze that.

8. How is it that Vulcans can mate with Humans and Humans with Klingons but these guys can't mate with people on their planet? You know, another acceptable alternative.

(You guys can get a natural immunity by cross breeding!)

9. Archer says we didn't come out here to play God. He's saying that...in a STARSHIP. Which is about as close to God as you can get.

10. It implies inaction is somehow less of an infraction than action itself.

It just feels very Anti-Roddenberry all round since the message of the episode boils down to.

"The superior race should inherit the Earth."
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Old June 30 2013, 04:30 AM   #67
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
If the primitives evolving with the other advanced race, what would stop them from doing so without them?
While the advanced species might be currently suppressing the primitives, there was no dialog as to the advanced attempting to kill off the primitive.

So why the need for one of them to die off, for the other to prosper?

The Xindi apparently made it work.

If you substituted the closest RL parallel, it would be Native Americans dying out for Europeans to take their place (rather than the high tech vs. low tech depicted in the show)--which is so incredibly offensive I can't even begin to analyze that.
Or, let the black plague completely eradicate all life in Europe, so that those nice folk in the near/middle east can then replace them.

And then there's Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens.

How is it that Vulcans can mate with Humans and Humans with Klingons but these guys can't mate with people on their planet? You know, another acceptable alternative.
To be fair, there are indication that not all Trek species can inter-breed. There was initially doubt that Jadzia and Worf would be able to have children.

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Old June 30 2013, 04:32 AM   #68
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

While the advanced species might be currently suppressing the primitives, there was no dialog as to the advance attempting to kill off the primitive one.
This script must have gone through 6 or 7 rewrites because Phlox actually goes out of his way to say the modern culture WASN'T suppressing them and they'd given them their own continent.
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Old June 30 2013, 05:33 AM   #69
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post

Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.

of course it is

if your definition of slavery is simply " being under the power of another," then most of us already are anyway. What do you think happens if you don't obey a law that you think is silly or unjust, or don't want to pay a certain tax?

the only issue is whether that power is mostly tolerant, just, and benevolent or not
So, if somebody kidnapped you and locked you in a room for ten years, you wouldn't mind so long as it had enough pillows and they gave you pizza and beer?

The only time a government is justified in exercising power over you is to prevent you from harming somebody else's right to life, liberty and property. It's established in the early seasons that you can't even make a significant trade deal in the GQ without getting approval from the Dominion. You certainly can't criticize the government, or interact with anyone the government doesn't like. On Cardassia, citizens had to carry papers around with them at all times.

You kill a man in the US, it takes an expensive trial just to punish you, and you might even get out in 20 years. You kill a man on a Dominion planet they execute 50 of your friends. You can't even make a comparison.

Maybe those blue guys from Alliances would prefer comfortable imprisonment, but Romulans surely would not.

by your definition, just about any government other than an extreme, right-wing libertarian one would be an oppressive tyranny. Most democratic, "free" governments regulate economic activity, many (social democracies, especially) to a large extent, and many governments(conservative ones, especially) regulate social behavior and lifestyle choices.


So again, the question isn't "is there control?' it's about the amount and the intentions behind it. Otherwise, we're all prisoners to some extent.
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Old June 30 2013, 05:46 AM   #70
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I great the impression the Dominion is a very "carrot and stick" form of government. The Vorta are designed to be pleasant and avuncular even if they're plotting genocide. The Jem'hadar are extreme professionals at all times.

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
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Old June 30 2013, 05:12 PM   #71
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Spectre Of The Gun

From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...

And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.

It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
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Old June 30 2013, 07:12 PM   #72
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Didn't they force contact in The Corbomite Maneuver and A Taste of Armageddon?
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Old June 30 2013, 08:29 PM   #73
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Stoek wrote: View Post
Spectre Of The Gun

From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...

And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.

It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Didn't they force contact in The Corbomite Maneuver and A Taste of Armageddon?
There are a host of episodes of TOS where the Federation and Starfleet appear to be forcing Kirk to go somewhere and break the prime directive. There are also some episodes where Kirk himself decides to break the prime directive for no apparent reason or a bad reason.

Upon further viewings, you can start to see Kirk & the Federation as the bad guy.
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Old June 30 2013, 08:39 PM   #74
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Stoek wrote: View Post
Spectre Of The Gun

From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...

And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.

It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Didn't they force contact in The Corbomite Maneuver and A Taste of Armageddon?
There are a host of episodes of TOS where the Federation and Starfleet appear to be forcing Kirk to go somewhere and break the prime directive. There are also some episodes where Kirk himself decides to break the prime directive for no apparent reason or a bad reason.

Upon further viewings, you can start to see Kirk & the Federation as the bad guy.
I know we debate and debate and debate Kirk and the PD, and I can see the arguments saying how Kirk is all right in the case of The Apple (I think they're wrong but...) but here? How..HOW can you not say that Kirk, upon his own authority, destroying those computers and changing the entire political relationship of those two planets is not a violation?

The PD does apply to post-warp societies. It's not just about contamination, it's also about interfering in the politics of other worlds.
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Old June 30 2013, 11:06 PM   #75
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
The PD does apply to post-warp societies. It's not just about contamination, it's also about interfering in the politics of other worlds.
Prescisely. It's the reason why the Federation wasn't allowed to support Gowron's petition to lead the High Council in 2367. Starfleet considered the matter "an internal affair of the Klingon Empire," so Picard wasn't allowed to intervene once his duties as Arbiter of Succession were finished.

He was allowed to stop the Romulans from shipping supplies to the Duras sisters because they were interfering in Klingon politics, but that was as far as Starfleet allowed him to go.

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