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Old June 28 2013, 01:31 PM   #46
1001001
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.
Tuvix was nothing more than a merging of Tuvok and Neelix, and not a original life-form. When the composite being was separated back into it's two original forms, the composite's memories apparently lived on in both Tuvok and Neelix. There was no surprise on their faces when they materialized in sickbay, they remembered the activities of Tuvix, just as Tuvix temporarily retained both of their memories.

There was no "death" of Tuvix.
I don't know about that. Tuvix certainly thought he was dying.

If he was simply a composite of two live beings who were aware, he should have begged to be separated. He did not.

He expressed individuality, consciousness, and a very clear will to live.
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Old June 28 2013, 02:06 PM   #47
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Yeah, I stick with it being triage. A situation many people would disagree with but I view it less as necromancy than the fact that two people lived where one couldn't. Were there a way for Tuvix to live with then, I'm sure Janeway would have taken it.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:19 PM   #48
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I'd argue the opposite. Strategically, if this doesn't work, the Borg now know you're attempting genocide against them. All that protects the Alpha Quadrant is the Borg's semi-disinterest.
If I'm not mistaken, only one person objected to the plan on its face: Crusher. Picard and Laforge objected only because they observed evidence of emerging individual consciousness in Hugh, and felt that using him in a particular capacity was amoral. And Admiral Nechayev expressed, in the name of Starfleet, her disapproval of Picard's choice, regardless of Hugh's transformation. That was Starfleet's values: one voice of complete dissent. Moreover, they disregarded it as an immoral action because it would bring an end to the war in which Federation citizens suffered and in which the Borg, for whom there was no difference between soldier and citizen, were the only aggressor. Whether or not it would have been effective is not a moral question.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:30 PM   #49
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's entirely possible that the average citizen wouldn't even have noticed a difference. Pay your bills, do exactly what they say, and the Dominion won't send in the Jem'Hadar.
Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.

of course it is

if your definition of slavery is simply " being under the power of another," then most of us already are anyway. What do you think happens if you don't obey a law that you think is silly or unjust, or don't want to pay a certain tax?

the only issue is whether that power is mostly tolerant, just, and benevolent or not
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Old June 28 2013, 05:25 PM   #50
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

1001001 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.
Tuvix was nothing more than a merging of Tuvok and Neelix, and not a original life-form. When the composite being was separated back into it's two original forms, the composite's memories apparently lived on in both Tuvok and Neelix. There was no surprise on their faces when they materialized in sickbay, they remembered the activities of Tuvix, just as Tuvix temporarily retained both of their memories.

There was no "death" of Tuvix.
I don't know about that. Tuvix certainly thought he was dying.

If he was simply a composite of two live beings who were aware, he should have begged to be separated. He did not.

He expressed individuality, consciousness, and a very clear will to live.
Okay, let's switch this around a bit.

If it was Spock and McCoy fused together and there was a chance we'd never get either character back would folks complain as much over it?

Let's not forget that folks didn't really like Tuvok or Neelix and would've been happy to see them gone out of the equation here. Audience bias.
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Old June 28 2013, 06:15 PM   #51
T'Girl
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

1001001 wrote: View Post
If he was simply a composite of two live beings who were aware ...
I don't want you to think that I'm saying the Tuvok and Neelix were individually conscious of what was going on while a composite, there was a single combined awareness. My position is that they apparently remember events. There was no surpirse when they materialize in sick bay, and Neelix didn't question Kes's "welcome back."

It of note that neither Tuvok nor Neelix seem to subsequently make any effort to become re-combined.

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Old June 29 2013, 04:40 AM   #52
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's entirely possible that the average citizen wouldn't even have noticed a difference. Pay your bills, do exactly what they say, and the Dominion won't send in the Jem'Hadar.
Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.

of course it is

if your definition of slavery is simply " being under the power of another," then most of us already are anyway. What do you think happens if you don't obey a law that you think is silly or unjust, or don't want to pay a certain tax?

the only issue is whether that power is mostly tolerant, just, and benevolent or not
So, if somebody kidnapped you and locked you in a room for ten years, you wouldn't mind so long as it had enough pillows and they gave you pizza and beer?

The only time a government is justified in exercising power over you is to prevent you from harming somebody else's right to life, liberty and property. It's established in the early seasons that you can't even make a significant trade deal in the GQ without getting approval from the Dominion. You certainly can't criticize the government, or interact with anyone the government doesn't like. On Cardassia, citizens had to carry papers around with them at all times.

You kill a man in the US, it takes an expensive trial just to punish you, and you might even get out in 20 years. You kill a man on a Dominion planet they execute 50 of your friends. You can't even make a comparison.

Maybe those blue guys from Alliances would prefer comfortable imprisonment, but Romulans surely would not.
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Old June 29 2013, 04:57 AM   #53
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post

Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.

of course it is

if your definition of slavery is simply " being under the power of another," then most of us already are anyway. What do you think happens if you don't obey a law that you think is silly or unjust, or don't want to pay a certain tax?

the only issue is whether that power is mostly tolerant, just, and benevolent or not
So, if somebody kidnapped you and locked you in a room for ten years, you wouldn't mind so long as it had enough pillows and they gave you pizza and beer?

The only time a government is justified in exercising power over you is to prevent you from harming somebody else's right to life, liberty and property. It's established in the early seasons that you can't even make a significant trade deal in the GQ without getting approval from the Dominion. You certainly can't criticize the government, or interact with anyone the government doesn't like. On Cardassia, citizens had to carry papers around with them at all times.

You kill a man in the US, it takes an expensive trial just to punish you, and you might even get out in 20 years. You kill a man on a Dominion planet they execute 50 of your friends. You can't even make a comparison.

Maybe those blue guys from Alliances would prefer comfortable imprisonment, but Romulans surely would not.
Nor can YOU! There are several countries you can't trade with without getting government permission. And the ones you can, the government has already given you permission to do so.

Jake criticized the Dominion, on an occupied station...as an enemy alien!

But you're right about one thing, the Dominion doesn't play when it comes to people not playing by the rules.

Didn't German citizens have to carry papers also during WW2? And from the little we've seen, the common Romulan citizen is already fairly oppressed. As I said, they probably wouldn't even notice a change in government. ...isn't there a line from a Who song...?


Again, you can't compare an occupying force such as The Dominion to one such as Cardassians, or Romulans or Nazis...etc...What are the driving forces behind the last three? Power. Founders don't get off on power. They want things controlled, and personally to be left alone and left in The Link.

What's the most dangerous thing about being a citizen in occupied territory? The arbitrariness of an occupying troop, yes? Getting randomly raped or beaten or robbed by a soldier. Jem'hadar don't give a **** about that. Neither do Vorta. As occupiers, Cardassians are a billion times more dangerous.

Now...yes. If you resist. You are ****ed. And your descendants are ****ed.

But yes, as I said earlier, the Romulans might have had there entire population exposed to plague because of the actions earlier in the season...but I'll bet The Breen were going to be sitting pretty if they had won!

Last edited by Dale Sams; June 29 2013 at 05:09 AM.
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Old June 29 2013, 01:11 PM   #54
Belz...
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

1001001 wrote: View Post
I thought Tuvix was a pretty bad example. The whole episode wrote Janeway into a corner. Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.
Not only that, but there was little dilemma to begin with: one guy on your crew, or two ? Given Voyager's situation, there was no real choice to make. And the trailer promised that it would tear me apart !

At least I learned that clothes can be merged by the transporter.
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Old June 29 2013, 01:26 PM   #55
Belz...
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
What's the most dangerous thing about being a citizen in occupied territory? The arbitrariness of an occupying troop, yes? Getting randomly raped or beaten or robbed by a soldier. Jem'hadar don't give a **** about that. Neither do Vorta. As occupiers, Cardassians are a billion times more dangerous.

Now...yes. If you resist. You are ****ed. And your descendants are ****ed.
So the Cardassians are more dangerous if you are compliant, and the Dominion is more dangerous if you are not ? What a comfortable choice this is.

I'll stick with the Federation, thanks.
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Old June 29 2013, 02:48 PM   #56
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Belz... wrote: View Post
So the Cardassians are more dangerous if you are compliant, and the Dominion is more dangerous if you are not ? What a comfortable choice this is.

I'll stick with the Federation, thanks.
Under the Dominion, you would be oppressed. Under the Cardassians, you would be enslaved and oppressed.(Slavery and oppression are not the same thing.) It's a huge difference, until you consider that the Dominion would seek out government's like Cardassia's to police the Alpha Quadrant in the Founders' interests.

For the sake of argument, what would have been the effect if the Federation, Klingons or the Romulans had decided to join the Dominion? I suspect that the Founders would have been satisfied so long a order was maintained. However, it would be left to the collaborating governments to maintain order with the methods they have at hand. Those societies might only become more repressive by a matter of degrees; there might be no substantial change. Romulans, who are accustomed to be spied on by the state, might feel little change. The Klingon warrior class might feel empowered. However, Weyoun specifically picked Earth as a center of future resistance and recommended eradicating the population. What does that mean? Perhaps he would have no faith in the Federation's ability to control th population.

Last edited by Bad Thoughts; June 29 2013 at 06:04 PM.
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Old June 29 2013, 09:25 PM   #57
Belz...
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
For the sake of argument, what would have been the effect if the Federation, Klingons or the Romulans had decided to join the Dominion? I suspect that the Founders would have been satisfied so long a order was maintained.
You think they would've let them keep their fleets ?
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Old June 29 2013, 10:19 PM   #58
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

^Not a chance. Starfleet would have been disbanded and its ships destroyed or put in mothballs. There would not have been a UFP had the Dominion won the war.

--Sran
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Old June 29 2013, 10:19 PM   #59
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Did the Dominion dismantle Cardassia's ship?
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Old June 29 2013, 10:22 PM   #60
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Did the Dominion dismantle Cardassia's ship?
No, but Cardassia joined the Dominion by choice. The Federation would not have had that option had they lost the war.

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