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Old June 28 2013, 09:05 PM   #1
Portal
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At War With The Romulan Empire?

According to the TNG episode "The Defector", the Norkan Outposts were destroyed in a massacre by the Romulans.

Now I admit to knowing very little about stardates and the entire TOS series timelines, but my questions are these:

Did the Norkan Outposts belong to the Federation?

And if so...

When was the Federation formally at war with the Romulan Star Empire?

Please forgive my ignorance on this matter.
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Old June 28 2013, 09:08 PM   #2
-Brett-
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Been a long time since I've seen the episode, so I can't comment in too much detail.

I will say that the Federation doens't necessarily respond to military provokation (even incidents that can be called massacres) with declarations of war.
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Old June 28 2013, 09:14 PM   #3
Portal
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Also in "The Defector", the Romulan Admiral Jarok mentions something to the effect that starting a new war would be too costly for the Empire. So I assume there was a war at some point in the past.
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Old June 28 2013, 09:32 PM   #4
Portal
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

^He also mentions the "humiliating defeat at the Battle of Cheron has not been forgotten."
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Old June 28 2013, 10:17 PM   #5
Phily B
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

There are lots of neat references through out the show to battles and incidents we don't see, its why the Trek universe seems to full and big. Just leaves us to imagine these battles incidents etc
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Old June 28 2013, 10:31 PM   #6
C.E. Evans
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Portal wrote: View Post
According to the TNG episode "The Defector", the Norkan Outposts were destroyed in a massacre by the Romulans.

Now I admit to knowing very little about stardates and the entire TOS series timelines, but my questions are these:

Did the Norkan Outposts belong to the Federation?
Yep.
And if so...

When was the Federation formally at war with the Romulan Star Empire?
Technically, the Federation has been in a cold war (with periodic bursts of actual hostilities) with the Romulans since its inception, but in TOS' "Balance of Terror," it established that Earth and Romulus went to war during the 22nd-Century (presumably a few years prior to the Federation's formation).

The Norkan Outposts were Federation outposts destroyed by the Romulans during a series of border skirmishes along the Neutral Zone possibly in the early 24th-Century and prior to the Romulans entering their period of isolationism, IMO.
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Old June 28 2013, 10:34 PM   #7
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

It's possible, and in my oppinion, more likely, that the Norkan Outpots belonged to some smaller race that bordered the Romulan Star Empire.
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Old June 28 2013, 10:43 PM   #8
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Praetorian wrote: View Post
It's possible, and in my oppinion, more likely, that the Norkan Outpots belonged to some smaller race that bordered the Romulan Star Empire.
Or that they were a series of Federation outposts located in the Norkan System (or the Norkan Sector) along the Neutral Zone.
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Old June 28 2013, 10:52 PM   #9
Portal
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Earth and Romulus went to war during the 22nd-Century.
Alright, so what do we know about this war. I'm very interested to learn about it. I'll try to get ahold of the "Balance of Terror" episode and watch it carefully.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:06 PM   #10
Nerys Myk
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

In a nutshell

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. In our next action, we can risk neither miscalculation nor error by any man aboard. Listen carefully. Science Officer.

SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago. As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.

KIRK: What you do not know and must be told is that my command orders on this subject are precise and inviolable. No act, no provocation will be considered sufficient reason to violate the zone. We may defend ourselves, but if necessary to avoid interspace war, both these outposts and this vessel will be considered expendable. Captain out.

STILES: We know Outpost four has been attacked, sir, so if we intercept Romulans now

KIRK: After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves.

STILES: You'll know, sir. They're painted like a giant bird-of-prey.

KIRK: I had no idea that history was your specialty.

STILES: Family history. There was a Captain Stiles was in the space service then. Two Commanders and several junior officers. All lost in that war, sir.

KIRK: Their war, Mister Stiles. Not yours. Don't forget it.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:08 PM   #11
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Praetorian wrote: View Post
It's possible, and in my oppinion, more likely, that the Norkan Outpots belonged to some smaller race that bordered the Romulan Star Empire.
Or that they were a series of Federation outposts located in the Norkan System (or the Norkan Sector) along the Neutral Zone.
Yes, my post was meant as an alternative to yours, should have made it clear.

I do find it unlikely that a "massacre" wouldn't have resulted in war between the Federation and the Romulans. The Federation might be pacifist, but never had problems enganging in wars, like with the Cardassians, Talarians and the Tzenkethi. Such war would have been mentioned other times, I'd wager.

Also, such war/massacre would have had to happen before the Tomed Incident, some 50 years before the episode, implying that Alidar Jarok was quite old. Not impossible though, considering Vulcan longevity, which, I suppose, Romulans also have.

However, nothing precludes your scenario, the info we have is simply not enough.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:11 PM   #12
Portal
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

That's great. Thank you Nerys Myk.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:12 PM   #13
C.E. Evans
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Portal wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Earth and Romulus went to war during the 22nd-Century.
Alright, so what do we know about this war. I'm very interested to learn about it.
Had ENT continued for a couple more seasons, it probably would have shown the event(s) that caused the war.
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Old June 28 2013, 11:18 PM   #14
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

It would have been interesting to see how Enterprise would have dealt with the limitations imposed by Balance of Terror, specially considering their previous track record (Romulans already having fully funcional cloaks in the 22nd century...hell, Suliban already having fully funcional cloaks in the 22nd century).
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Old June 28 2013, 11:23 PM   #15
C.E. Evans
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Re: At War With The Romulan Empire?

Praetorian wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Praetorian wrote: View Post
It's possible, and in my oppinion, more likely, that the Norkan Outpots belonged to some smaller race that bordered the Romulan Star Empire.
Or that they were a series of Federation outposts located in the Norkan System (or the Norkan Sector) along the Neutral Zone.
Yes, my post was meant as an alternative to yours, should have made it clear.

I do find it unlikely that a "massacre" wouldn't have resulted in war between the Federation and the Romulans.
It could have easily been a case that military action was taken by the Federation that resolved the situation without the need for a full-out war. Romulan forces may have been driven out of the Norkan System and the Romulans acquiesced.
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