RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,070
Posts: 5,432,260
Members: 24,926
Currently online: 560
Newest member: wod_freak

TrekToday headlines

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Beltran Introduces Shakespeare To Theater Group
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Burton To Be Honored at Facets Boo! Bash
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 28 2013, 01:52 AM   #106
LobsterAfternoon
Commander
 
LobsterAfternoon's Avatar
 
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Monkey, well said. It actually jive nicely with Ronald D. Moore's opinion, which is that Starfleet is roughly equivalent to the US Coast Guard, which can be put under the command of the Dept of the Navy during wartime but is usually the purview of the Department of Homeland Security.
LobsterAfternoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 03:48 AM   #107
nightwind1
Commodore
 
nightwind1's Avatar
 
Location: Des Moines, IA
Re: Scotty and his military comment

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
Monkey, well said. It actually jive nicely with Ronald D. Moore's opinion, which is that Starfleet is roughly equivalent to the US Coast Guard, which can be put under the command of the Dept of the Navy during wartime but is usually the purview of the Department of Homeland Security.
As a former Coastie, that has always been my view. I even wrote an article on it for a 'zine once. (Unfortunately, I can't find the article anymore.)
__________________
Remember: No Matter Where You Go, There You Are...88

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
nightwind1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 04:23 AM   #108
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
When humans start going into space you can expect one of the existing branches will assume that mission and its most likely the Navy who already operates large ships in and under the ocean.
Actually seeing as the Air Force are the ones building space craft and tend to be the ones NASA uses it seems more likely they'll be doing it at least on the US side of thing by virtue of actually knowing how to operate a space craft.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 10:42 AM   #109
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
Some argue that because it is structured like one and often behaves like one, it must be a military. It seems to me that the distinction others are making is that a military's primary purposes are combat and defense, with its other roles being incidental to those.
Yes, and we've covered this before. You can't ignore one set of writings because of isolated statements by characters. A character may state his beliefs that Starfleet isn't military, but that doesn't mean the rest of the evidence (so far as stuff in a fictional show can be considered as such) is thrown out.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 06:23 PM   #110
ROBE
Commander
 
ROBE's Avatar
 
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Maybe they developed from the Salvation Army?
Sorry I'll get my coat.
ROBE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 06:30 PM   #111
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The man who claims that "Starfleet is not a military organization" is the Captain of a spacecraft whose crew includes several hundred civilians, many of them children. This does not appear to be a feature unique to galaxy-class starships, since several years later we see this is also true of the USS Saratoga.
This is like saying that military bases adjacent to a neighborhood built specifically for the soldiers and their families...
No, it's like saying a ship isn't a warship because the Captain says so and because much of his crew brought their families along for the ride (an act that would be unconscionable on an actual military vessel).

Show me the last time an aircraft carrier was outfitted with a kindergarten for the officers' children; show me the last time a cruiser went into a combat situation with the First Officer's wife and child sitting in his quarters, wondering what's for dinner.

That isn't a military organization. That's an exploration service that doesn't mind getting conscripted.

Are you suggesting the original Enterprise had children and families on board during TOS?
Why don't you question what I said rather than your straw construct of my argument ?
You're the one who said nothing changed between TOS and TNG. The change was that Starships started going into deep space with children and families on board.

Am I wrong? Was this NOT a change? Did they have families on Kirk's Enterprise?

The non-military nature of Starfleet is a REACTION to U.S. politics.
Prove it.
Didn't I already do that, correlating the changing depiction of Starfleet with the prevailing attitudes towards the U.S. military and geopolitical context of the time?
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 06:54 PM   #112
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No, it's like saying a ship isn't a warship because the Captain says so and because much of his crew brought their families along for the ride (an act that would be unconscionable on an actual military vessel).
Again: it's like saying a military base isn't one because the wife and kids live next door. Don't try to say it isn't saying what you're saying.

Show me the last time an aircraft carrier was outfitted with a kindergarten for the officers' children;
If they left for a 20-year mission, they might. I don't think the definition of "military" includes a minimum distance from civilians.

Also, please note that I never called the Enterprise a warship.

You're the one who said nothing changed between TOS and TNG.
Yes, that's one thing that "changed", but as I said above it doesn't make Starfleet not military. We're talking about Starfleet, not individual ships.

Didn't I already do that
No.
__________________
And that's my opinion.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 07:01 PM   #113
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post


You're the one who said nothing changed between TOS and TNG. The change was that Starships started going into deep space with children and families on board.

Am I wrong? Was this NOT a change? Did they have families on Kirk's Enterprise?
Which seems to have come to a screeching halt if the TNG movies, DS9 and Voyager are accounted for.

Again, even in early-TNG, the "we're not the military" remark Picard gives simply doesn't stand up under any kind of serious scrutiny. Starfleet is the one that is sent when an aggressor threatens Federation borders. Starfleet is the one who protects civilian shipping and outposts. Starfleet is the one who develops weapons and strategy for defending the Federation.

You have to have a dedicated military for defense and border patrol. Does Starfleet have exploration and science responsibilities? Yes. But never have we seen those responsibilities as being more important than the defense of the Federation. Which, to me, shows where Starfleet's actual priorities are.

YMMV.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 07:16 PM   #114
yousirname
Commander
 
yousirname's Avatar
 
Re: Scotty and his military comment

IMO this is another issue where canon is self-contradictory and that's just that. I seem to remember the Phil Farrand books discussing the matter and offering contradictory quotes from Kirk in various TOS episodes.

Maybe the best way to see it is that Starfleet are indeed the military, but they're not just the military. They're NASA, the CDC, the EPA and probably Fish and Wildlife, too.
yousirname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 07:22 PM   #115
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Just take Kirk's comment to John Christopher literally "we're a combined service" (IIRC).

Starfleet is a multipurpose organization whose military functions come to the fore when needed but otherwise recede into the background when other duties arise. It's not really all that complicated a concept.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 07:24 PM   #116
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

yousirname wrote: View Post
IMO this is another issue where canon is self-contradictory and that's just that. I seem to remember the Phil Farrand books discussing the matter and offering contradictory quotes from Kirk in various TOS episodes.

Maybe the best way to see it is that Starfleet are indeed the military, but they're not just the military. They're NASA, the CDC, the EPA and probably Fish and Wildlife, too.
But character quotes come from a character point-of-view and can be wrong. Do we give more weight to those quotes than all the battles and other decidedly military missions we see Starfleet engage in on a rather regular basis?

Do they have other responsibilities outside of strict defense of the Federation? Yes. But so has pretty much every military in human history. Is the military no longer the military when they deliver humanitarian aid? Is the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers not the military?
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 28 2013, 08:10 PM   #117
yousirname
Commander
 
yousirname's Avatar
 
Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
But character quotes come from a character point-of-view and can be wrong. Do we give more weight to those quotes than all the battles and other decidedly military missions we see Starfleet engage in on a rather regular basis?

Do they have other responsibilities outside of strict defense of the Federation? Yes. But so has pretty much every military in human history. Is the military no longer the military when they deliver humanitarian aid? Is the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers not the military?
I don't see where you're contradicting me, to be honest. I am saying that Starfleet is the military. I'm just saying that they're also other things, too.
yousirname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 12:04 AM   #118
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

yousirname wrote: View Post

I don't see where you're contradicting me, to be honest. I am saying that Starfleet is the military. I'm just saying that they're also other things, too.
The post wasn't meant to come off as me disagreeing with you. I was just hoping to cut some of the others off before they started with character "X" said this!
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 12:43 AM   #119
George Steinbrenner
Fleet Admiral
 
George Steinbrenner's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View George Steinbrenner's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
When humans start going into space you can expect one of the existing branches will assume that mission
Maybe not. There could be a new branch of the military that is created for that purpose. Space travel is so unlike anything we've ever done, that this may be the best option.

After all, NASA drew from all four branches of the military, and also civilians, for its astronaut pool...
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
George Steinbrenner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 29 2013, 01:41 AM   #120
yousirname
Commander
 
yousirname's Avatar
 
Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
The post wasn't meant to come off as me disagreeing with you. I was just hoping to cut some of the others off before they started with character "X" said this!
Ah, fair enough - my mistake.
yousirname is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.