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Old June 28 2013, 10:35 AM   #556
Belz...
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

sonak wrote: View Post
why do rich athletes, rich movie stars, CEOs, etc. work?
Because they want MORE money to buy more shit.

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Self-actualization, public pressure, education. At the end of the day, a lot of people who are able to make do unemployed feel valueless and unsatisfied with their life.
Yeah but in a society in which they can own what they want, things'd be a bit different.
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Old June 28 2013, 10:39 AM   #557
Belz...
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Crazyewok wrote: View Post
O come on how many do you really think would carry on if they did not get paid!
Like Data's maid in AGT. Is she cleaning up after him, servicing him, doing chores for him because she finds it fulfilling?

Or the Starfleet groundskeeper Picard spoke about--why is he putting so much effort to make Starfleet Academy so beautiful?
Real examples, please. Not fictional ones.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:46 PM   #558
Crazyewok
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

[QUOTE=Belz...;8310448]
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post

Real examples, please. Not fictional ones.

He makeing a point on that crap jobs exsist in the 24th century.

So yeah there has to be some incentive!
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Old June 28 2013, 02:41 PM   #559
YJAGG
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Earth 2 w/ John Saxon
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Old June 28 2013, 03:32 PM   #560
sonak
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
why do rich athletes, rich movie stars, CEOs, etc. work?
Because they want MORE money to buy more shit.

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Self-actualization, public pressure, education. At the end of the day, a lot of people who are able to make do unemployed feel valueless and unsatisfied with their life.
Yeah but in a society in which they can own what they want, things'd be a bit different.

sorry, no. Many athletes or movie stars have more than $100 million, which is enough to buy basically what you want for life. They're not playing/making movies to "earn" the money to buy yet another yacht.
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Old June 28 2013, 06:47 PM   #561
Belz...
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
He makeing a point on that crap jobs exsist in the 24th century.

So yeah there has to be some incentive!
We're arguing that the idea of a moneyless society is silly because it would never work. Pointing out that it works on the show is beside the point.

sonak wrote: View Post
sorry, no. Many athletes or movie stars have more than $100 million, which is enough to buy basically what you want for life.
It's not your place to decide for others if they need more money. If they didn't think they did, they would work for a lot less, and yet they don't. Ergo, they want the money, too.
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Old June 28 2013, 06:57 PM   #562
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

REDrake wrote: View Post
I always assumed there was no currency within Starfleet, not within Federation as a whole. Or if there isn't then UFP is a communist organization. After all Leningrad is still called like that.
It's a minor point, but the bolded doesn't follow.

I've no idea why people keep bringing up the USSR in this discussion. The USSR used money, you know?
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Old June 28 2013, 07:03 PM   #563
CoveTom
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
robau wrote: View Post
Exocomps.
Well seeing as waste extraction if refered to as a actually job given as punishment or to slowly ensigns and enlisted it figure if Starfleet are useing people for that job then Civilians will need to do it for Civilian waste extractors.
That raises another interesting point. If Starfleet officers are not getting paid and they're free to resign at any point, as we've seen, how would punishment ever be enforced?

Wouldn't, "Ensign Ricky, for your deriliction of duty you must go to waste extraction and work a shift," often be followed by, "Then I resign my commission as a Starfleet officer," and, of course, a dramatic removal of a com badge?
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Old June 28 2013, 10:48 PM   #564
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
We're arguing that the idea of a moneyless society is silly because it would never work. Pointing out that it works on the show is beside the point.
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional. It comes down to meeting people's needs not what form the transaction must take. In a monetary system the general public (i.e. the workers) are essentially paying twice at marked up rates for what they already produced. That's how dispossession works under both forms of capitalism: the corporate form and the statist form.

"Avoid self-destruction, recognize - and renounce money for the impovershing ration system it really was..." -- Matter by Iain Banks page 174.

R. I. P. Iain Banks 1954 - 2013
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Old June 28 2013, 11:54 PM   #565
Crazyewok
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post

We're arguing that the idea of a moneyless society is silly because it would never work. Pointing out that it works on the show is beside the point.
And I think those examples show that picard was talking out his arse.
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Old June 29 2013, 12:28 AM   #566
Belz...
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional.
I must've missed it. Which real-life societies are functional without money, aside from primitive tribes ?
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Old June 29 2013, 07:52 PM   #567
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional.
I must've missed it. Which real-life societies are functional without money, aside from primitive tribes ?
TheGoodNews has brought up a single semi-modern example of moneyless communities in pre-WWII Spain. The problem with his one example is that it's impossible to know if it would have worked over a protracted period of time, or with a large population group.

The small moneyless communities backed the losing side (the Frente Popular) in the Spanish civil war and the moneyless experiment cease to exist.

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
... quite functional.
Even you would have to admit that that is quite a stretch.

CoveTom wrote: View Post
That raises another interesting point. If Starfleet officers are not getting paid and they're free to resign at any point, as we've seen, how would punishment ever be enforced?
First it's not clear that Starfleet officers aren't receiving pay, some very obviously have financial means.

Using a comparison to modern militaries, people who have been found to have committed an illegal offense prior to leaving the service, they (as a civilian) can still be tried in a military court of law. Even if your offense isn't discovered for many years.

If brought up on changes, simply resigning wouldn't get you out of legal prosecution. If found guilty, simply having resigned wouldn't prevent your punishment.

If your offense was severe enough, you might be expelled from the service after serving your sentence.

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Last edited by Elvira; June 29 2013 at 08:38 PM.
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Old June 29 2013, 11:26 PM   #568
marksound
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Trying to relate this to real human nature ...

If you wanted a new building for your business, who would you call to design it? Who would you call to supply the steel to frame it? Who would they employ to mine the ore, smelt it, make the beams, etc.? Who would you call to excavate the site? All for no exchange, no money? Would people do these things out of the goodness of their hearts so you could have your building?

Who would build the power plants? Who would run the water and sewer lines? Who would pave the streets, drive the public transport, and on and on and on.

If you managed to get your building up, who would work there? Who would be the boss, and who would be the subordinates? If the boss tells you to do something you don't want to do, would you do it without question or would you tell him to take a flying leap because if he fired you it wouldn't matter as you're not being paid anyway?

I'd really like to know.
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Old June 30 2013, 12:09 AM   #569
Brown-Eyed Ghoul
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

^^ Don't you get it by now? In a "post-scarcity" economy, replicators could create all those materials and supplies out of thin air. Or maybe just by the power of pure thought, like the Krell machines in Forbidden Planet.

Hey, it's science fiction.
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Old June 30 2013, 12:09 AM   #570
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
And yet Belz, I've pointed out more than once that moneyless societies have proven to be quite functional.
I must've missed it. Which real-life societies are functional without money, aside from primitive tribes ?
See my above comments. There was the Spanish Revolution and the Kibbutz movement. Also, in the U.S. there was the San Francisco Diggers which included actor Peter Coyote and engaged in many moneyless activities.

In the U.S. the IWW (the Wobblies) slogan was "against the wage system."

So you see T'G, I've brought up other historical examples besides the Spanish Revolution. I've also mentioned contemporary examples such as Time Banks and the Barter/Exchange Co-ops of present-day Argentina.
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