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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old February 25 2013, 02:05 PM   #16
heavy lids
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

The Regent wrote: View Post
Personally, I found her character grating over time. I didn't understand her choosing Garak over her father after all he'd done and gave up for her. She just kept on betraying him the moment she felt a little angry then it was right back to him because she couldn't stay mad.
All he did was not kill her. That's it. If it wasn't for Kira, Dukat would have killed Ziyal. She really doesn't owe Dukat anything. And her choosing Garak over Dukat isn't betrayal, it's just her making her own decisions without having to get relationship approval from her father(that shit went out of style 400 years ago).
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Old February 26 2013, 12:24 AM   #17
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

The Regent wrote: View Post
I found her death useful for the BSOD and Despair Event Horizon that Dukat underwent but I felt it weird that Garak didn't have one as well. I understand that, being a spy, he would hide it but he didn't even bring it up when he was fighting The Dominion on Cardassia. It was like it was like she was here for a moment then gone.
I never saw Garak as really too attached to her. He softened to her a lot, but they never really seemed that close. Oh, of course Ziyal was all hot for him, but it didn't seem reciprocated. In fact, I'd bet Garak mostly liked her for the reactions their relationship got from Dukat
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Old February 26 2013, 08:24 PM   #18
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
I've just thought of something else... I reckon Dukat got that attached to her not just because of her being symbolic of his whole Bajor obsession (good point, Royal Family), but because she is actually willing to believe he's perfect; she wants and needs to believe that. Being such an essentially narcissist individual as Dukat is, that kind of adoration on a daily basis would certainly go down like honeyed wine...
We have a winner!

This is a large part of what I think is going on.

At least personally, though, I think there is one other layer, too (though some may disagree with me on this). I think that Ziyal also embodied, in some ways, the better angels of Dukat's nature--and when she died, his last chance of "salvation" died with her.

(This is also part of why I characterize my alternate-universe version of Dukat the way I do: in that universe, the father and daughter are said to be very similar by those who know both.)

As far as Ziyal's naivete, I consider her psychological development to have been stunted by her captivity on Dozaria. Add to that the fact that in essence an impossible fairy tale came true for her (the idea that her father would be a knight in shining armor rather than coming to kill her), AND she was subsequently raised by a man whose psychological development was also quite immature...it's no wonder Ziyal is rather messed-up, though it displays in a much more innocent fashion than on Gul Dukat.
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Old February 26 2013, 10:07 PM   #19
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I liked Ziyal. I wish she would have been used more. I would have liked to see a friendship between her and Jake, comparing what it's like to be the offspring of such prominent figures.
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Old March 1 2013, 08:14 PM   #20
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I liked Ziyal. I think she was just the kind of character that made DS9 wuch a well-developed show.
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Old March 2 2013, 02:07 AM   #21
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Ziyal did not see it as choosing Garak over Dukat, she saw it as 'No good reason I can't choose both, even though they hate each other'.

And then later she went against Dukat because she knew he was planning to hurt people.
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Old June 19 2013, 07:49 AM   #22
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I've just gotten back into rewatching DS9 after a long hiatus. I have to say I liked the Garak/Ziyal relationship. I'd forgotten the multi-actress casting situation. I get why they went with Melanie Smith from an age standpoint. She didn't really seem 35 in that makeup and Garak seemed younger to me than Andrew Robinson in real life so it wasn't a problem from that standpoint.

In "Call to Arms" she kisses and hugs him on the way off the station, and Garak seems startled not by the idea that someone he doesn't have feelings for is kissing him, but that she feels a genuine love for him and an honest spirit when he's used to so many people having ulterior motives. He's holding her the way you do when you feel something for someone--even if he doesn't think he deserves to receive it, and even if it's not grown into love. He feels something, but with Garak it's always more complicated than that.

In "Sacrifice of Angels" he's among those reuniting with loved ones on the station, looking for Ziyal. It's not like he's just humoring her, knowing she expects to see him and he has to go through the motions. He's not just going to be relieved to see the other DS9 Cardassian is safe or that his friend's okay. As much as he likes Bashir, I dunno that I'd ever expect to see Garak looking around that way, anxious for a reunion. Ziyal feels about him the way no one else does. He's looking forward to seeing her, knows she'd be looking for him, and genuinely wants to reconnect with that innocent soul that thinks he's a wonderful person. He would've been happy and relieved to reconnect. I think that says a lot. We can't expect him to break down in tears in the infirmary. Kira wasn't doing that. They've both seen too much death and lost too many people.

If nothing else, he'd eventually have the My Fair Lady realization "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face" and if his neck was on the line at some point in the future she'd try to stand with him rather than let him be scrappy on his own. I'm not sure if Garak thought he deserved to be loved by someone like Ziyal. That's why he couldn't figure out why she loved him. It wasn't some weird attachment on her part. It was that he didn't understand how he warranted anything like that from anyone, especially because his life has been lacking in trust for so long. Kind of sad.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:28 PM   #23
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Ziyal was a tragic character from the very beginning, but it wasn't over done or blatantly rubbed in your face. In fact quite the opposite, that she had seen the horrors that life had to offer and knew the value of making each moment count and being optimistic despite it all.

But it's another grand example of how DS9 handled it's subplots and secondary characters too. Ziyal not only had her own character arc, but influenced so many others too. Kira, Dukat, Damar, Garak. Heck, even she and Quark had a few moments. But just having her around was an example of the show willing to take chances and not just hit the reset button, but have real consequences. Be it her being Dukat's daughter, a child of the Occupation to Garak's lover even to finally killing her. An excellent plot and consequences that lasted well beyond her final appearance.

The saddest moment of all was when Kira and Garak, in what should've been the hour of their greatest triumph, were in the Infirmary with her body. Even though, there's no love lost between the two, they both cared for Ziyal. Kira says she loved him and Garak... in probably one of his few honest moments just says he didn't know why. Sad stuff.
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Old June 20 2013, 12:53 AM   #24
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

The fact of having 3 actresses made it a lot harder for me to empathize with her, it seemed like a totally new person each time. I understand they wanted someone older for the 3rd one, though.

I just saw her as a morality pet. Dukat changes his mind about killing her, so we at least briefly think he's an ok guy with a conscience.

On the other hand, I almost got the feeling he did it to try to get into Kira's pants. If he'd been with someone else, I think he'd have killed her (especially since it would be a scandal and his family would leave him). So I kind of feel like, rather than this act showing the audience Dukat's a nice guy, it's a manipulative act to show Kira he's a nice guy. I see her as a plot device, but I like that she exists in the series. It's not that I think Dukat is that horrible, I just think he looks at the world in a very skewed way. And he had a lot to lose by not killing her. The one thing that might have tipped the odds in his favor when it came to Kira would be saving Ziyal, and he seemed to think this might set the stage for the three of them playing house and living happily ever after.

There's also the fact that Dukat's really into Bajoran women and she's sort of a token of that, as others have mentioned.

And also the way that she adores him and he's very full of himself. He thinks everyone should adore him, he thinks there should be statues of him on Bajor, so of course he appreciates that at least one person looks up to him. His need for adoration is treated pretty heavy-handedly in episode Covenant.
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Old June 20 2013, 07:23 AM   #25
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I liked her. I thought her infatuation with Garak was nice. It was kind of tragic how he kept pushing her away. You'd think on the surface that it's because of her age, but I think after you scratch past that it's because he doesn't feel like he deserves love deep down. Plus, I actually think he cared enough about her to not want to pull her into his fate by too close of an association.
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Old June 25 2013, 12:19 AM   #26
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I thought Ziyal's arc started out well but I think they botched it at the end.

They couldn't send Ziyal to another part of the Federation because there was nobody but Kira who'd accept her.
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Old June 25 2013, 01:27 AM   #27
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I really liked Ziyal and was upset when she was killed. I think she was an important part of Dukat's development, especially since she was close to Kira which made for some good scenes since Kira despises Dukat.
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Old June 26 2013, 06:30 AM   #28
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
I've just thought of something else... I reckon Dukat got that attached to her not just because of her being symbolic of his whole Bajor obsession (good point, Royal Family), but because she is actually willing to believe he's perfect; she wants and needs to believe that. Being such an essentially narcissist individual as Dukat is, that kind of adoration on a daily basis would certainly go down like honeyed wine...
For me, I think it was a subtle part of Dukat's personality that the writers did which was really good. Basically, Dukat is NOT a sociopath--but he's done ungodly amounts of sociopathic actions. In a weird way, Dukat is the guy from Duet except he's unwilling to admit what he's done.

He desperately wants to justify the unjustifiable.

Ziyal is a way of him redeeming himself for supervising the murder of 7 million people.
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Old June 28 2013, 04:26 PM   #29
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

I really liked Ziyal (especially the third actress who played her), though I do wish they had done more with her over the course of her time onboard.

I'd liked to have seen a relationship between her and Jake, mostly for the reactions from both Sisko and Dukat--one not keen on it whilst the other would try to take advantage of it. This could also have seen some good moments for the Jake-Nog friendship.

I would have liked her to survive, though understand why she needed to die.

I also think it would've been nice to have had a reveal after her death, that Tora Ziyal was actually Kira Ziyal--Nerys' half-sister who Dukat fathered.

Just some thoughts I've had on Ziyal over the years.
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Old June 28 2013, 08:10 PM   #30
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Re: Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post

I also think it would've been nice to have had a reveal after her death, that Tora Ziyal was actually Kira Ziyal--Nerys' half-sister who Dukat fathered.
That would've been so awesome just for the excuse of Dukat to say "You may call me daddy" to Kira.
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