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Old June 28 2013, 01:28 AM   #31
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I see DS9 as being just as optimistic as TNG. Just, less dogmatic in that optimism.

Now that I think about it, Doctor Bashir I Presume.

I always hated the idea that people would get blacklisted based on the crimes of their parents. Or, if they did get blacklisted, why don't they get high paying private sector jobs outside the Federation? And then they create one special exception for somebody who just happened to get away with it for long enough and none of the other genetics say "Hey, wait a minute. Why not me then?" They just didn't think that arc through at all.
The answers for this sort of thing pretty much exist all throughout history, particularly amongst people who are biracial in areas where that wasn't exactly tolerated. Hiding their identities because they wanted to continue life in their home territories or seek dreams in fields they wanted to trumped "private sector" or moving.

And I suspect the Admiral in question made the exception knowing it was creating a legal precedent but doing so in a way that rectified the "wrong" of the parents versus the child.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:50 AM   #32
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Actually, after reading the responses by other folks, yeah, In The Pale Moonlight. It puts forward the idea of the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, via Sisko taking on the sins necessary to win the war.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:52 AM   #33
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Of course, while Sisko is worried about the two guys he murdered (via indirect order), the real victims are the thousands of Romulans who will die.
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Old June 28 2013, 02:04 AM   #34
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Of course, while Sisko is worried about the two guys he murdered (via indirect order), the real victims are the thousands of Romulans who will die.
Something that's never acknowledged following the episode. The Romulans were duped into joining the war effort and fought valiantly alongside their Alpha Quadrant neighbors, never knowing the truth about what Sisko and Garak had done. I've often wondered if members of the Tal Shiar (Koval) suspected the truth but chose not to act because they believed it was necessary to drive the Dominion out of the AQ.

There's an interesting short story in the TNG anthology book that has Picard traveling to Romulus to deliver Admiral Jarok's letter. Jarok writes in his suicide note that Koval is a fellow patriot who wants what's best for his people. It sheds new light on Koval's decision to aid the Federation by providing high-level intelligence info on his government.

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Old June 28 2013, 02:55 AM   #35
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I would argue that fewer Romulans died because they joined the war effort.

Or, it's possible that Romulus would have just surrendered once they were surrounded by the Dominion. But centuries of slavery isn't much better than death.

What Sisko did is very debatably the right thing to do, but it has nothing to do with Star Trek morality. It's an outright critique of Star Trek morality.
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Old June 28 2013, 03:04 AM   #36
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I would argue that fewer Romulans died because they joined the war effort.
No doubt. The Dominion would ultimately have overrun them once they finished with the Federation and the Klingons.

JinnPanthosa wrote:
Or, it's possible that Romulus would have just surrendered once they were surrounded by the Dominion. But centuries of slavery isn't much better than death.
I'd argue that it's worse. What good is the survival of a race if the essence of said race has been lost?

JinnPanthosa wrote:
What Sisko did is very debatably the right thing to do, but it has nothing to do with Star Trek morality. It's an outright critique of Star Trek morality.
Bringing the Romulans into the war was the right move. It's how they were brought into it that raises so many questions. In the end, I think they'd have joined the war anyway. The issue is whether it would have happened soon enough to make a difference.

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Old June 28 2013, 03:18 AM   #37
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I would argue that fewer Romulans died because they joined the war effort.

Or, it's possible that Romulus would have just surrendered once they were surrounded by the Dominion. But centuries of slavery isn't much better than death.

What Sisko did is very debatably the right thing to do, but it has nothing to do with Star Trek morality. It's an outright critique of Star Trek morality.
It's entirely possible that the average citizen wouldn't even have noticed a difference. Pay your bills, do exactly what they say, and the Dominion won't send in the Jem'Hadar.

The Founders goals are not to be evil overlords, but to bring order from chaos and to set up mechanisms to protect themselves from solids.

The real problem for the Klingons and Feds if they lose the war (other than that whole 'let's wipe out Earth's population' thing) is they are going to be the CARDASSIANS and BREEN's subjects. *That* is going to suck.

Now Romulus does have the problem that they tried to wipe the Founders out (even though they were manipulated into doing so.)

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Old June 28 2013, 03:49 AM   #38
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

In Balance of Terror, after Kirk disabled the Romulan ship, he ceased firing and offered to beam the Romulan survivors aboard the Enterprise.

In Journey To Babel, after he disabled the Orion ship, he ceased fire and was going to offer the Orions the chance to surrender.

In Elaan of Troyius, after he partially disabled the Klingon ship, he ceased fire and allowed it to withdraw.

In each of these examples, Kirk was willing to destroy the ships and kill their crews while in combat, but once the ships were rendered disabled, combat was over.

Kirk could have easily killed the Gorn on it's back, killed Khan unconscious on the floor in engineering, the same story with the wounded Horta. James Kirk possesses mercy.

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
For TNG, I'll nominate "Hugh."
I wouldn't. Picard actions in not destroying the Borg (assuming it would have worked) are immoral and indefensible. Subsequent to that episode, the Borg went on the kill, enslave/assimilate and terrorize millions and billions across the galaxy. A vast area in the delta quadrant would have been freed of them. The invasive program would have taken down the Borg collective network, and while no doubt many Borg would have died, others of the many billions of Borg would have found themselves freed.

As Starfleet would later inform him, Picard's actions were wrong.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Least representative [of Starfleet morality]

Star Trek TNG: Pen Pals
What I've always found interesting about this episode (in terms of the prime directive) is the scene in Picard's quarters where we find that of the top six officers aboard the Enterprise, none of them agree as to what the prime directive means, how it should be applied, and two of the officers don't believe it should apply to primitive cultures in need a all. At least not the primitive culture in the episode.

In the end, Picard briefly transforms into James Kirk, he helps the primitives in such a way that they don't realize that a technologically advanced culture had helped them. Despite what the PD says, Picard doesn't just stand to the side and watch them die.

1001001 wrote: View Post
Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.
Tuvix was nothing more than a merging of Tuvok and Neelix, and not a original life-form. When the composite being was separated back into it's two original forms, the composite's memories apparently lived on in both Tuvok and Neelix. There was no surprise on their faces when they materialized in sickbay, they remembered the activities of Tuvix, just as Tuvix temporarily retained both of their memories.

There was no "death" of Tuvix.

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Old June 28 2013, 03:57 AM   #39
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

As Starfleet would later inform him, Picard's actions were wrong.
It wouldn't have worked as we later found out.
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Old June 28 2013, 04:09 AM   #40
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Starfleet saying Picard was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Picard did the right thing in not making a snap judgement to commit genocide.

Also, why would millions of drones find themselves free? What if it killed every single one of the trillion drones in the galaxy?

Who knows? Maybe Janeway destroying the Borg complex freed one trillion drones that would have been dead had Picard proceeded.

edit: In reading the synopsis for "I, Borg"...I am reminded that it was Picard's idea.
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Old June 28 2013, 04:39 AM   #41
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's entirely possible that the average citizen wouldn't even have noticed a difference. Pay your bills, do exactly what they say, and the Dominion won't send in the Jem'Hadar.
Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.
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Old June 28 2013, 04:47 AM   #42
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

As Starfleet would later inform him, Picard's actions were wrong.
Starfleet saying Picard was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Picard did the right thing in not making a snap judgement to commit genocide.
Starfleet says that Picard was strategically wrong, not morally wrong. In contemporary foreign policy, national interest is separate from and superior to personal morality. Arguably, national interest is beholden to a higher standard in the ST universe, but there are still things governments will do that individuals cannot. Indeed, that was part of the moral test that was being explored by I, Borg.
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Old June 28 2013, 05:34 AM   #43
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Starfleet saying Picard was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Picard did the right thing in not making a snap judgement to commit genocide.
Starfleet says that Picard was strategically wrong, not morally wrong. In contemporary foreign policy, national interest is separate from and superior to personal morality. Arguably, national interest is beholden to a higher standard in the ST universe, but there are still things governments will do that individuals cannot. Indeed, that was part of the moral test that was being explored by I, Borg.
I'd argue the opposite. Strategically, if this doesn't work, the Borg now know you're attempting genocide against them. All that protects the Alpha Quadrant is the Borg's semi-disinterest.
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Old June 28 2013, 05:46 AM   #44
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's entirely possible that the average citizen wouldn't even have noticed a difference. Pay your bills, do exactly what they say, and the Dominion won't send in the Jem'Hadar.
Comfortable slavery is not any less slavery.
Of course it is. Ask any Bajoran on the occupied DS9 if they'd rather stay out of the way of grumpy Jem'Hadar....or work in a Cardassian dilithium refinery 14 hours a day.
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Old June 28 2013, 06:06 AM   #45
Charles Phipps
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Of course it is. Ask any Bajoran on the occupied DS9 if they'd rather stay out of the way of grumpy Jem'Hadar....or work in a Cardassian dilithium refinery 14 hours a day.
The main issue is the one faced by the Cardassians is it's not that slavery is okay when it's good, it's just it can turn bad at any minute. The Cardassians got nothing but benefits from the Dominion right up until they didn't....and it became clear they were nothing but cannon fodder.
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