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Old June 27 2013, 03:06 PM   #16
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

1001001 wrote: View Post
I thought Tuvix was a pretty bad example. The whole episode wrote Janeway into a corner. Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.

I think they either should have come up with some phenomenon to cause them to become separate again (transporter accident or something), or just not done the episode at all.

they could have wrote it so that Tuvix is eventually persuaded to voluntarily undergo the procedure, sacrificing himself to save Tuvok and Neelix. That would have changed the ending from horrifying to moving.
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Old June 27 2013, 04:06 PM   #17
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Surprised no one's mentioned "The Drumhead" from the fourth season of TNG. The episode offers a fascinating commentary on the rights of an individual and the danger exemplified not only by people who would willingly trod upon those rights to push their own agenda, but also by the fear and paranoia that drives these people's actions in the first place. "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" would be similar examples from DS9.

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Old June 27 2013, 07:32 PM   #18
Greg Cox
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Worst? The Enterprise Incident.

*These* are our heroes?.
To be fair, the Romulans had used their new cloaking device to launch devastating sneak attacks on Federation outposts just two years earlier. ("Balance of Terror," of course.)

Was Starfleet just supposed to ignore that threat and hope that the Romulans didn't do it again? Maybe against Earth or Vulcan or major colonies and populations centers?

A little duplicity and espionage seems preferable to waiting for a full-scale Romulan invasion, even if a certain Romulan commander ended up feeling used.
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Old June 27 2013, 07:42 PM   #19
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Sran wrote: View Post
Surprised no one's mentioned "The Drumhead" from the fourth season of TNG. The episode offers a fascinating commentary on the rights of an individual and the danger exemplified not only by people who would willingly trod upon those rights to push their own agenda, but also by the fear and paranoia that drives these people's actions in the first place. "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" would be similar examples from DS9.

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I did.
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Old June 27 2013, 07:50 PM   #20
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Worst? The Enterprise Incident.

*These* are our heroes?.
To be fair, the Romulans had used their new cloaking device to launch devastating sneak attacks on Federation outposts just two years earlier. ("Balance of Terror," of course.)

Was Starfleet just supposed to ignore that threat and hope that the Romulans didn't do it again? Maybe against Earth or Vulcan or major colonies and populations centers?

A little duplicity and espionage seems preferable to waiting for a full-scale Romulan invasion, even if a certain Romulan commander ended up feeling used.
Just clearing up a few things.

The cloaking device in Balance of Terror works badly. Enterprise picks up 'something' almost immediately. Enterprise Incident is a new improved cloak. You probably knew this, but your post doesn't make it quite clear.

The Romulans don't do full-scale invasions immediately. They probe, they test, they INCITE. Then...maybe...they invade "Not with one ship, but everything they've got".

So exactly how are the Romulans supposed to react when Federation officers deliberately violate the Neutral Zone, board a Romulan vessel and steal a crucial piece of technology?

What would the U.S. do if Chinese soldiers boarded a US Carrier and flew off with an F-22? Point being, that's NOT 'a little duplicity and espionage' Now maybe this fits the definition if Kirk and Spock infiltrate a base, make off with some plans and the only one who knows about it is one female Romulan clerk.
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Old June 27 2013, 08:01 PM   #21
Greg Cox
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

One can argue that the Romulans violated the Neutral Zone first, back in "Balance of Terror," destroying several Starfleet outposts and killing numerous Federation citizens. And how was the Federation to know that the Romulans hadn't worked the kinks out of the cloaking device since. Again, was Starfleet supposed to just sit back and hope for the best?

To their credit, Starfleet showed great restraint by not retaliating immediately after the attacks in "Balance of Terror." Slipping past the Neutral Zone to steal some dangerous new technology from a known threat strikes me as a relatively measured and prudent response. And don't forget, this was back in the sixties when spy stories were the rage.

"Mission: Impossible" used to do this sort of thing every week!
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Old June 27 2013, 08:04 PM   #22
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
I did.
Yes, you did. My apologies, sir.

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Old June 27 2013, 08:38 PM   #23
Dale Sams
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
One can argue that the Romulans violated the Neutral Zone first, back in "Balance of Terror," destroying several Starfleet outposts and killing numerous Federation citizens. And how was the Federation to know that the Romulans hadn't worked the kinks out of the cloaking device since. Again, was Starfleet supposed to just sit back and hope for the best?

To their credit, Starfleet showed great restraint by not retaliating immediately after the attacks in "Balance of Terror." Slipping past the Neutral Zone to steal some dangerous new technology from a known threat strikes me as a relatively measured and prudent response. And don't forget, this was back in the sixties when spy stories were the rage.

"Mission: Impossible" used to do this sort of thing every week!
You make some good points about the events of BoT. McCoy seemed to think the Romulans were trying to draw the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone to give them an excuse to attack. So, between that and the other Fed members probably saying 'Romulus isn't OUR enemy!'...I think a military response was off the table. So I think you're right about the events of Enterprise Incident being a reasonable response. They also got bonus intelligence in confirming that the Romulans had Klingon technology.

From the Romulans perspective, (In Balance of Terror) their 'finest flagship' just never came back from its mission. Which gave them the answer they wanted as to whether or not the Federation (or Earth, if they don't know about the Feds) was ripe for attack.

And fwiw, the Feds DID know that the Romulans had a new cloaking device.

Last edited by Dale Sams; June 27 2013 at 08:53 PM.
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Old June 27 2013, 08:44 PM   #24
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

"For the Uniform." Sisko going and poisoning a whole planet to human life (and perfectly willing to do it to lots of others)? "Red Alert" Worf even hesitated to do it. That in itself is enough for this thread, but we also have the tit-for-tat that Starfleet doesn't usually get involved with.

And then Sisko gets off without further comment, let alone repercussions.

I liked it, and think it's justified (and apparently Starfleet does, too), but it was clearly a way to shock the viewers, because this kind of thing doesn't happen in Trek.
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Old June 27 2013, 08:47 PM   #25
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

^Deep Space 9 has always had a different way about it compared to its counterparts. That's probably why it's my favorite Trek series. It pushes boundaries the other series won't even touch, which makes for great character development and compelling storytelling.

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Old June 27 2013, 08:58 PM   #26
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Sran wrote: View Post
^Deep Space 9 has always had a different way about it compared to its counterparts. That's probably why it's my favorite Trek series. It pushes boundaries the other series won't even touch, which makes for great character development and compelling storytelling.

--Sran
"In the Pale Moonlight" is worth seeing for Stephen McHattie's portrayal of Vreenak alone. Compare that to Andrea Katsulas' Admiral Tomulak* in "All Good Things..."

*He's like that Mexican Bee Guy in Simpsons. "Ay-Yi-Yi Picard!!"

He fares better in The Defector.
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Old June 27 2013, 09:07 PM   #27
Sran
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
"In the Pale Moonlight" is worth seeing for Stephen McHattie's portrayal of Vreenak alone. Compare that to Andrea Katsulas' Admiral Tomulak* in "All Good Things..."

*He's like that Mexican Bee Guy in Simpsons. "Ay-Yi-Yi Picard!!"

He fares better in The Defector.
Agree on all counts. It's too bad Vreenak's death was necessary to the plot. I'd have enjoyed his being a recurring character. Maybe there's an MU version out there somewhere.

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Old June 27 2013, 10:43 PM   #28
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Sran wrote: View Post
^Deep Space 9 has always had a different way about it compared to its counterparts. That's probably why it's my favorite Trek series. It pushes boundaries the other series won't even touch, which makes for great character development and compelling storytelling.

--Sran
DS9 benefited greatly from following straight from TNG: the latter series presented an extraordinarily optimistic outlook that begged to be explored outside the confines of Starfleet culture. Whereas the strength of the show is often ascribed to the complexity of story telling and depth of the characterizations, the setup, the confrontation of people who were not only of different ethnicities, but also of different organizations, allowed for the greatest exploration of ST values.
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Old June 28 2013, 12:55 AM   #29
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

I see DS9 as being just as optimistic as TNG. Just, less dogmatic in that optimism.

Now that I think about it, Doctor Bashir I Presume.

I always hated the idea that people would get blacklisted based on the crimes of their parents. Or, if they did get blacklisted, why don't they get high paying private sector jobs outside the Federation? And then they create one special exception for somebody who just happened to get away with it for long enough and none of the other genetics say "Hey, wait a minute. Why not me then?" They just didn't think that arc through at all.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:02 AM   #30
1001001
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
1001001 wrote: View Post
I thought Tuvix was a pretty bad example. The whole episode wrote Janeway into a corner. Unless they were willing to fire Russ and Phillips, there had to be a solution which ended Tuvix's life.

I think they either should have come up with some phenomenon to cause them to become separate again (transporter accident or something), or just not done the episode at all.

they could have wrote it so that Tuvix is eventually persuaded to voluntarily undergo the procedure, sacrificing himself to save Tuvok and Neelix. That would have changed the ending from horrifying to moving.
That also would have been acceptable.
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