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Old June 26 2013, 06:33 AM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
It works better if you compare civilian vs military, since Narada was a civilian ship. Would an oil rig from today thrown back to 1913 be able to take down any contemporary naval vessels? Even do any significant damage?
Well give an oil tanker sonar, radar, rockets, torpedoes and what not and I think they'd do quite well against the dreadnaughts of the day... presuming they don't get in range of their armament anyways.
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Old June 26 2013, 08:17 AM   #32
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

Belz... wrote: View Post
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According to the most resent movie, Starfleet has yet to go on any five years missions.
Which is odd, I think. First off, the NX-01 went on a 2 year mission a hundred years back. I'd think they'd have managed to do 5 by now. Second, Cardassians are mentioned in the first movie, which is odd, to say the least. You get the impression that they traveled further by 2255 than in the Prime timeline.
Actually, in the prime timeline, Tobin Dax was said to have met a certain Cardassian poet on Vulcan, which means we can assume the Federation had made contact with Cardassians (and the Trill, for that matter), by his lifetime (late 22nd/early 23rd century).

Faria wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
According to the most resent movie, Starfleet has yet to go on any five years missions. So the area explored by the federation in the alternate universe might be much smaller than in the prime universe at the same time period. In the mid 24th century of the prime universe, Bajor (with it's wormhole) was at the extreme edge of explored space, "the frontier."

It might take the federation until the 25th century or later to encounter the Dominion.

(Oh and spoiler alert)

But JJships are faster than TOS ships, so the space explored could be more

And i think JJships don't need a wormhole to go to gamma quadrant
Well, they probably do, considering even the 24th century technology they were adapted from couldn't go that far that fast, but I was actually thinking about this:

Now having the Bajoran wormhole get discovered over a century earlier than in the prime timeline opens up a whole can of worms about the Prophets and Sisko supposedly being destined to discover it.

On the other hand, we know that BARZAN wormhole goes to the Gamma Quadrant (some of the time, anyway), so if you needed a plot device to allow the Abrams crew to run into some Jem'Hadar, that could work.

That being said, I don't really expect them to do anything with the Dominion, who were really only confined to DS9.

Sidenote; the Barzan wormhole could also work if you wanted to send them in the Delta Quadrant and have them run into the BORG instead! We already know they work well on the big screen and Kirk happens to be the only captain who's never run into them at some point. Hey, you never know...

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
I think that the Nerada Incident has had a knock-on effect on all the Alpha-Quadrant races.
Not to be slow, but I have to admit to you that I've never come across the expression "knock-on effect." What does it mean please?
Sorry, knock-on means that it has a ripple effect.

Race A encounters Race B, and has to construct technologies to allow it to compete with them militarily. Race C sees this build-up and although not directly involved thinks "Oh crap, we better do that too!" and changes their own design/construction philosophies accordingly.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It would be an arms-race, and no doubt they may have attempted to keep up. IIRC
Not necessarily, the Klingon like their ships lean and fast. The need to oversize wouldn't be automatic.

Ah, but alongside the Birds of Prey, the Klingons also have the D7 (their equivalent of the Constitution/Miranda), and there is a theory that the refitted K'tinga-class from TMP was a direct result of Klingon spies learning of the proposed refits of the Constitution class. Another theory of course is that the Constitution refit was Starfleet's response to the K'tinga!

Alongside this, they have the Vorchas (Excelsior/Ambassador equivalent perhaps?) and the huge Neg'var-class, which appears to be almost a direct Klingon answer to the Galaxy-Class and Romulan D'deridex-class warbird.
Actually, the Vor'cha appears to be a contemporary of the Galaxy class.

Romulan ship lineage is a bit harder to figure out, since there's basically a hundred year gap between the OS-era Bird-of-Prey and the TNG-era Warbird. Since the movies never featured them in any significant capacity, can only speculate about the look, size, or strength of any late 23rd / early 24th century Romulan ships.

(Actually I thought the BOP we saw on "Enterprise" would've been a perfect transition between the BOP and the Warbird. The problem was it was about 150 years too soon).

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
It works better if you compare civilian vs military, since Narada was a civilian ship. Would an oil rig from today thrown back to 1913 be able to take down any contemporary naval vessels? Even do any significant damage?
But this still doesn't quite fit, as the on-screen evidence shows that, despite the Narada being a mere mining vessel, for whatever reason, she was armed to the teeth, with military-grade firepower.

The analogy would be "What if you outfitted a modern rig with Harpoon Missile launchers and sent it back to 1913?"

We really have to wonder WHY the Romulans felt it was necessary to arm the ship with what appears to be weaponry even more formidable than a Warbird?

In a strange twist, it could in fact be that Dominion attacks on the Romulan industrial base forced them to arm mining vessels out of all proportion for protection.

Then, the Narada going back in time, changes starship developement, meaning that when the Dominion actually do turn up on the scene, they may be less of a threat due to these very technological advances!
I never questioned the premise of pretty much any ship owned and operated by a race as militaristic as the Romulans being armed to the teeth. (It's also possible Nero picked up some weapon upgrades for the Narada before going after Spock).
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Old June 26 2013, 08:53 AM   #33
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

t_smitts wrote: View Post
Actually, in the prime timeline, Tobin Dax was said to have met a certain Cardassian poet on Vulcan, which means we can assume the Federation had made contact with Cardassians (and the Trill, for that matter), by his lifetime (late 22nd/early 23rd century).
That doesn't necessarily follow, just because a Cardassian can travel to Vulcan, doesn't mean the Federation interacted with the Cardassia Union.

Guinan was on Earth in the late nineteenth century, but she wasn't there as a representative of her people to the local government, she was a anonymous tourist.

Dax was in Jackson, Mississippi around the year 2250, that doesn't mean the Federation had a clue who the Trill were for nearly another century.

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
The Nerada was also able to shrug off the explosion of the USS Kelvin ...
After the Kelvin collided with the Narada, the Klingons were able to take the Narada's crew prisoners. The Narada couldn't fight the Klingons off, and it couldn't run away. It was dead in space and helpless.

despite the Narada being a mere mining vessel, for whatever reason, she was armed to the teeth
Was it? The only armaments the Narada possessed were missiles, it had no beam weapons (iirc) and after following Spock away from Earth, the Narada ran out of missiles. At which point it was effectively disarmed. The drilling rig wasn't really a weapon.

The Narada had enough 24th century missiles to engage approximately 55 antique ships from a century before.




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Old June 26 2013, 01:06 PM   #34
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

The Klingon sequences were cut from the movie, IMHO I suspect because it would have created more questions that it would have answered, i.e. even if the Klingons couldn't completely understand the tech, they'd have torn the Narada apart in the twenty years they had it in their possession searching for answers.

The Kelvin had a hard time dealing with the missiles, George Kirk was able to keep the missiles off the escaping shuttles, but not able to protect the ship at the same time. Enterprise appeared capable of holding her own during the second encounter, but was still overwhelmed at Vulcan, perhaps the fact that they were protecting the jelllyfish at a distance rather than targeting missiles directed at her made the difference? Or, it could simply be that by then they knew exactly what they were facing.

As to the Narada's limited missile load-out, perhaps it was simply intended as purely defensive? Try to take this ship, and we WILL end you!

But, as you pointed out, she seemed to have had limited ammunition. This would fit into the theory that she was designed to defend herself, not take part in long-term military actions.

After destroying a Klingon fleet, taking apart the Feds at Vulcan, and pounding the Enterprise, Nero simply didn't have the time to replicate restocks, using his last available salvo to try to take down Spock.
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Old June 26 2013, 01:53 PM   #35
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
If you want the non-canon answer (and I'm sure many of you don't, so look away if tie-in comics make you puke), the Narada was so badass cause before going back in time but after Romulus blew up, it was upgraded by a Romulan military station with experimental tech.
Which was based on salvaged Borg technology, which eventually fully asserted control over the ship and went off to the Delta Quadrant on a spiritual quest to find V'Ger.

I prefer to leave those comics out of this, but I do agree with the idea that Nero obviously upgraded Narada from its mining ship origins. After all, he didn't intend to go back in time, that was an accident. If he intended to attack the 24th century Federation, he'd have to get past 24th century Starfleet and that would require something more impressive than a "simple mining vessel."
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Old June 26 2013, 09:05 PM   #36
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
The Nerada was also able to shrug off the explosion of the USS Kelvin whereas the Doomsday machine was destroyed by the explosion of the Constellation.
Careful, now. The Narada was crippled by the explosion, and (in a deleted scene anyway) its crew was captured by Klingons. It was clearly unable to continue attacking the shuttles, in any case. The Doomsday Machine was destroyed by a much more powerful explosion, also.

For an example from merely forty years tech difference:-
Isn't that more like thirty ?
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Old June 26 2013, 09:07 PM   #37
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

t_smitts wrote: View Post
I never questioned the premise of pretty much any ship owned and operated by a race as militaristic as the Romulans being armed to the teeth. (It's also possible Nero picked up some weapon upgrades for the Narada before going after Spock).
In the pretty-much-canon comic Countdown, which tells of that tale, we see the Narada being outfitted with reverse-engineered Borg tech. That's why it looks so awful, by the way.
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Old June 26 2013, 11:59 PM   #38
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

Belz... wrote: View Post
solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
The Nerada was also able to shrug off the explosion of the USS Kelvin whereas the Doomsday machine was destroyed by the explosion of the Constellation.
Careful, now. The Narada was crippled by the explosion, and (in a deleted scene anyway) its crew was captured by Klingons. It was clearly unable to continue attacking the shuttles, in any case. The Doomsday Machine was destroyed by a much more powerful explosion, also.

For an example from merely forty years tech difference:-
Isn't that more like thirty ?
Yeah, perhaps "survive" would have been a better term than "shrug off", with all those chunks flying off the Narada after the Kelvin blew!

The Final Countdown was released in 1980, so 39 years after Pearl Harbour, but yeah the F14 Tomcat was introduced into service in 1974. Then again, I think the Zeros would have still been outmatched by the 1960's era Phantoms, so the tech imbalance could be drastic even after only about twenty years!
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Old June 27 2013, 12:26 PM   #39
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

I think it is most unlikely we will see the Dominion in the Abrams films
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Old June 27 2013, 12:34 PM   #40
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Re: Will the Dominion be a complete non-factor in the JJ-Verse?

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