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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 25 2013, 10:41 PM   #16
Sran
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Re: The prefix number

DonIago wrote: View Post
Spock probably presumed Khan might have hacked Reliant's computer systems and consequently learned about the prefix code, whereas Saavik wouldn't be doing such things.
And hacking into a starship's main computer would require intelligence.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Yes, and sometimes intelligence manifests as simply being aware enough to bother looking something up. Khan's smart enough to do that, if he hadn't been overconfident.
Whether Khan looked up the code says nothing about what it would have taken to change the code.

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Old June 25 2013, 10:45 PM   #17
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Re: The prefix number

Yes, it does. If Khan could look up the code, then Spock's fear that he might have changed it suggests that it is possible to change it in the field, on the fly, with only the resources normally aboard a starship. Spock wouldn't have suggested the possibility otherwise.
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Old June 25 2013, 10:50 PM   #18
Sran
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Re: The prefix number

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Yes, it does. If Khan could look up the code, then Spock's fear that he might have changed it suggests that it is possible to change it in the field, on the fly, with only the resources normally aboard a starship. Spock wouldn't have suggested the possibility otherwise.
Only the resources normally aboard a starship? It seems to me that there are a lot of resources normally available aboard a starship. In any case, that doesn't mean that it's easy to do. Khan possessed advanced intelligence that almost certainly enabled him to do things that most people couldn't even dream of.

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Old June 25 2013, 10:56 PM   #19
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Re: The prefix number

Khan's intelligence isn't magical. He is smart, not omnipotent. When he was brought aboard in "Space Seed", they let him have access to the entire ship's library. That gave him a lot of insight into Starfleet capabilities and operations. If he had bothered to do the same thing again after capturing Reliant, he might have won.

As for changing the prefix code, it could be anything from simply telling the computer to change it (he had Captain Terrell under his thumb to do it if he needed a senior officer to do so) to some major hardware swapping. We don't know what it takes, just that it can be done in the field.
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Old June 25 2013, 10:58 PM   #20
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Re: The prefix number

Pavonis wrote: View Post
As for changing the prefix code, it could be anything from simply telling the computer to change it (he had Captain Terrell under his thumb to do it if he needed a senior officer to do so) to some major hardware swapping. We don't know what it takes, just that it can be done in the field.
Then why did you say that it couldn't be too hard?

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Old June 25 2013, 11:02 PM   #21
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Re: The prefix number

Because neither is that hard. Telling Terrell to change the code isn't hard. He would have to know to tell him, though. Terrell was compliant but not offering suggestions, only following orders. And if it takes hardware swaps to change the code, they must have the hardware aboard, else Spock wouldn't worry about the code being changed.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:07 PM   #22
Sran
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Re: The prefix number

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Telling Terrell to change the code isn't hard. He would have to know to tell him, though. Terrell was compliant but not offering suggestions, only following orders.
Once again, that doesn't prove that actually changing the code was easy. There's a difference between asking someone to do something and the person in question actually doing it.

Pavonis wrote:
And if it takes hardware swaps to change the code, they must have the hardware aboard, else Spock wouldn't worry about the code being changed.
Which still doesn't mean that it's easy to do. They may have had the equipment aboard, but that tells us nothing of how sophisticated the equipment is or what needs to be done for it to actually carry out its intended function. Not everything involves pushing one or two buttons in order for something to happen.

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Old June 25 2013, 11:15 PM   #23
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Re: The prefix number

How could telling the ship's captain to change the code not be easy? Maybe Spock was just considering the worst case scenario, but it must be the within the realm of possibility for Khan to change the code. So how hard could it be?

I think we differ in how much intelligence to ascribe to Khan. You think he's super smart, I think he is well above average, but not smart enough to do simple things like read a manual or ask the Captain and First Officer about security measures. Khan's ego is big; is his brain as big as his ego? I don't think so.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:28 PM   #24
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Re: The prefix number

Pavonis wrote: View Post
How could telling the ship's captain to change the code not be easy?
Because it might not be. Asking someone to do something is not the same thing as the person in question actually being able to do it. Khan's asking Terrell to change the code doesn't mean that Terrell would have been able to do it. As the movie establishes, Khan was facing a delicate timetable. We have no way of knowing whether Terrell was aboard Reliant long enough before reaching Regula to make the necessary changes or to instruct Khan on how to do so himself.

Pavonis wrote:
Maybe Spock was just considering the worst case scenario, but it must be the within the realm of possibility for Khan to change the code. So how hard could it be?
I'm sure that's exactly what Spock was doing. As a Starfleet officer, it would be part of his job to be prepared for exactly that sort of eventuality. In any case, that doesn't mean that Khan's actually changing the code would be an easy task. There are any number of things that could fall into a "worst cast scenario" dynamic, some of which are relatively easy to bring about, and some of which are much more difficult. My point is that we don't have enough evidence either way, so it's foolish to make an assumption about it as you have done. I'm sorry you don't understand this.

Pavonis wrote:
I think we differ in how much intelligence to ascribe to Khan. You think he's super smart, I think he is well above average, but not smart enough to do simple things like read a manual or ask the Captain and First Officer about security measures. Khan's ego is big; is his brain as big as his ego? I don't think so.
You yourself said that he didn't do those things due to overconfidence, not a lack of intelligence. Do you even read what you post? That Khan didn't take the time to read the Reliant manual doesn't mean that he lacks intelligence or is incapable of understanding a complicated concept. Furthermore, we don't know that he didn't ask Terrell or Chekov about the ship's security measures. That still doesn't mean that actually altering the ship's security measures would be easy do. Why is this so hard for you understand?

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Old June 25 2013, 11:40 PM   #25
Pavonis
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Re: The prefix number

What's hard for me to understand is your insistence that changing the prefix code must be hard to do. I would think the two senior officers would have the authority and ability to change the security measures of their ship. Is that really that unreasonable? Of course, Spock didn't know that Terrell and Chekov were under Khan's thumb, so he must think Khan is able to change the code on his own. In my view, that means it must not be too difficult, because if it merely takes intelligence to do it, then it can't be a brute force operation, or take a long time. It must be possible to change the code in the time that Reliant was last known to be under Terrell's control.

If I understand your position, you think that because Spock considered Khan intelligent enough to change the code, it must be very difficult to do. I don't see it that way. Sometimes intelligence is as simple as knowing to ask a question and not let ego or emotion get in the way. Khan was known to be at least smart enough to look things up, since he did so in "Space Seed".

I would appreciate you not taking pot shots at me by asking inane questions about whether I read my posts or not. You're new, so maybe you don't know that making things personal isn't a good idea here. Nothing here is that important to take personally. I didn't insult you, you know.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:43 PM   #26
Sran
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Re: The prefix number

Pavonis wrote: View Post
What's hard for me to understand is your insistence that changing the prefix code must be hard to do.
I'm not insisting that at all. You're only assuming that I am. This is what I said in previous post:

Sran wrote:
My point is that we don't have enough evidence either way, so it's foolish to make an assumption about it as you have done.
Also:

Pavonis wrote:
I would appreciate you not taking pot shots at me by asking inane questions about whether I read my posts or not. You're new, so maybe you don't know that making things personal isn't a good idea here. Nothing here is that important to take personally. I didn't insult you, you know.
I wasn't insulting you by asking if you re-read your posts. I was merely asking a question that you assumed was meant as an attack and took offense to. You're correct that I'm new here, but I've already seen several posters (not necessarily you, however) shoot down their own arguments because they clearly didn't read their own posts before continuing to discuss a topic.

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Old June 25 2013, 11:52 PM   #27
Pavonis
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Re: The prefix number

We never have enough information to know what goes on in Starfleet ships. That's not a particularly insightful post. If we were limited to just what was known through exposition, there'd be nothing worth discussing anymore. Most of these threads are all rehashing topics that are decades old. So we extrapolate from what little is known. And Spock thought Khan could change the prefix code. Does that mean it's really hard or really easy? Either conclusion is possible, and neither are foolish if the arguments are sound.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:54 PM   #28
Sran
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Re: The prefix number

^On that point, we can agree.

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Old June 25 2013, 11:58 PM   #29
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Re: The prefix number

Sran wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
There could be countless layers of fractal encryption that an outside (non-Starfleet) computer has to get through just to get to the prefix code. It also may be accessible only from the bridge maybe.
Or available only to officers of command-level rank or higher.
Yeah, that's something to consider too. The mere existence of prefix codes may not be widely known.
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Old June 26 2013, 02:22 AM   #30
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Re: The prefix number

It's almost as classified as the Omega Molecule stuff.
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