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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 25 2013, 04:52 AM   #631
Opus
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Again, a two-second bikini shot...
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Old June 25 2013, 05:31 AM   #632
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Opus wrote: View Post
Again, a two-second bikini shot...
Look at it this way.

The half-naked shot of Kirk in the film serves to reinforce the idea that Kirk is not taking things entirely too seriously still.

The half-naked shot of Carol Marcus in the film serves to reinforce the idea that...Kirk still has some issues.

One could argue that, for equality's sake, if you're going to have a half-naked scene of a male character that at least has some minor point, then the equivalent half-naked scene of the female character should at least be relevant to the character development or SOMETHING regarding the female character.

You're right, it's only a two-second scene, which makes it a not particularly strong example of what people find objectionable about it, but it is still an example nonetheless.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:40 AM   #633
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - well of course I have!
tl;dr.

That's all I really needed to know.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:46 AM   #634
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
One could argue that, for equality's sake, if you're going to have a half-naked scene of a male character that at least has some minor point, then the equivalent half-naked scene of the female character should at least be relevant to the character development or SOMETHING regarding the female character.
But, as has already been pointed out, this isn't Carol's story; it's Kirk's.

The half-naked shot of Carol Marcus in the film serves to reinforce the idea that...Kirk still has some issues.
Exactly.

But, anyway, as has also been pointed out, it does tell us something about Carol, too. It, in conjunction with her bringing up of Chapel, tells us (and Kirk) that she won't stand for being another hit-and-run victim of Kirk's affairs. Why would that be an important point for her to make? Because she finds him attractive, just as she knows he finds her attractive, too. Everyone should have noticed that Kirk engaged the charm machine right away, beginning when they first met on the shuttle. She obviously finds him attractive too, or else she wouldn't have changed in front of him so overtly in the first place. She's interested, but she wants a relationship with a grown-up.
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Old June 25 2013, 07:59 AM   #635
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - well of course I have!
tl;dr.

That's all I really needed to know.
However, the contra argument still has validity, as do many other variations in between and Defiance is living proof that that NuTrek could very easily feature more women more prominently without requiring a coup by female writers, directors, and producers.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:13 AM   #636
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

ST:Insurrection passes the test, for all the good that did.

The "Bechdel" test is pointless.The gender and topic of the character's dialogue ideally is irrelevant. The only factor which should matter is the subject matter of the movie itself.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:41 AM   #637
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
ST:Insurrection passes the test, for all the good that did.

The "Bechdel" test is pointless.The gender and topic of the character's dialogue ideally is irrelevant. The only factor which should matter is the subject matter of the movie itself.
But I think the test was only intended to highlight the oddity. If the gender and topic of of the character's dialogue ideally is irrelevant why is there such a consistent imbalance in the gender of the characters and why do so many women talk to each other about men.

The test was simply asking people to think about the conscious or subconscious bias that was finding its way onto the screen. The fact that a hooker asking another hooker for a light on a street corner passes the test while two doctors talking about a male patient would not is fine if it's part of a wider mix. It's that the wider mix that is uncommon that is evidenced by the fact that so many movies fail the test.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:18 AM   #638
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

If you really want to think about things, the word bias is a loaded term. Disproportionality is, I think, a more neutral, and therefore more objective, term. So, instead of,

The test was simply asking people to think about the conscious or subconscious bias that was finding its way onto the screen.
I would say,

The test was simply asking people to think about the disproportionality shown on screen.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:40 AM   #639
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
If you really want to think about things, the word bias is a loaded term. Disproportionality is, I think, a more neutral, and therefore more objective, term. So, instead of,

The test was simply asking people to think about the conscious or subconscious bias that was finding its way onto the screen.
I would say,

The test was simply asking people to think about the disproportionality shown on screen.
Good point. Another good example about the gay issue is to look back at Troy and 300 where heroic characters who had gay relationships were edited out. The butch Spartans, who practised homosexuality as part of their culture were shown mocking the Greeks as 'boy lovers' when in fact the historical Spartans probably shagging more young lads because the sexes were more segregated. And Achilles mourned the death of his cousin (although it isn't conclusive that Achilles & Patroclus were lovers, it would not have been unusual).

I don't mind so much if gay characters are an afterthought but it is irritating if they should be there but the writers take an active decision to edit them out to avoid the slightest risk of alienating their action-hero loving str8 male audience. Thus the term 'bias' may be loaded but it may also be appropriate.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:53 AM   #640
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Yes, bias sometimes is the appropriate term, if not often so. It's just not the best generally accurate term, is what I was saying.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:06 PM   #641
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - well of course I have!
tl;dr.

That's all I really needed to know.
However, the contra argument still has validity
No it doesn't, nor would it even if it was actually based anything. You're simply being argumentative, and you've already admitted you don't know what you're talking about, so why should I take you seriously?
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Old June 25 2013, 06:51 PM   #642
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
tl;dr.

That's all I really needed to know.
However, the contra argument still has validity
No it doesn't, nor would it even if it was actually based anything. You're simply being argumentative, and you've already admitted you don't know what you're talking about, so why should I take you seriously?
Once again, I think the cultural divide intervenes between us. Perhaps 'talking out of your ass' has a very specific meaning in your nation but it has a very generic meaning here. What I meant was, I haven't carried out scientific or sociological studies to prove my case empirically (neither have you I assume). Now that I look back though, I have studied advanced level sociology, social and developmental psychology, and sex discrimination law. Also, my English literature thesis was on gender roles in sci fi, examining the differences in the approach to gender in the Handmaids Tale, the Drowned World, and Ape & Essence. I may seem like I don't know anything to you but maybe I know more of what I'm talking about than I thought!

I think I have made some points that are worthy of debate and I have tried to provide examples. It has been pointed out that my use of terms such as gender, gender roles, and gender stereotypes interchangeably has caused some confusion. If anybody would like me to re-post in a way that clarifies my meaning, just post the definitions you would like me to use and I will re-edit. I'm still not clear on the qualitative difference between a 'traditional gender role' and a 'gender stereotype' if I'm honest. Can you provide any examples? The religious example didn't really clear it up for me because I can see that a religious tradition is very different from a religious stereotype. I'm just not clear on how I can translate that to gender.

For example, I can see that being a mother is not, in itself a gender stereotype, obviously, however, being a female character in a movie whose existence is defined exclusively by being the mother or wife of another character is IMO a gender stereotype in that medium. Is that where we are getting our wires crossed?

Overall, though, you shouldn't take me any more seriously than I should take you! This is just a forum and we're voicing lay opinions in order to engender good natured debate. I am happy to continue, if you don't want to continue, you don't have to.
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Last edited by Pauln6; June 25 2013 at 07:34 PM.
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Old June 25 2013, 07:32 PM   #643
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
What I meant was, I haven't carried out scientific or sociological studies to prove my case empirically (neither have you I assume).
Unless you can be bothered to at least READ them, your "playing devil's advocate" is a waste of time.

I'm still not clear on the qualitative difference between a 'traditional gender role' and a 'gender stereotype' if I'm honest.
Obviously.

Overall, though, you shouldn't take me any more seriously than I should take you!
It's one thing to have an uninformed opinion. It's another thing to pretend your opinion is informed even while being fully aware that it isn't.
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Old June 25 2013, 07:48 PM   #644
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
What I meant was, I haven't carried out scientific or sociological studies to prove my case empirically (neither have you I assume).
Unless you can be bothered to at least READ them, your "playing devil's advocate" is a waste of time.

I'm still not clear on the qualitative difference between a 'traditional gender role' and a 'gender stereotype' if I'm honest.
Obviously.

Overall, though, you shouldn't take me any more seriously than I should take you!
It's one thing to have an uninformed opinion. It's another thing to pretend your opinion is informed even while being fully aware that it isn't.
I'm not sure that sociology, psychology, law, and a thesis on the subject qualifies as 'uninformed' but I'll concede that was a while ago. I have also read two recent articles illustrating that the gender divide in movies has got worse. ~You also haven't provided me with any clarification on the definitions to qualify my earlier post.

But I'll bite - refer me to one of the studies that support your viewpoint and I'll compare them to my viewpoint.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:16 PM   #645
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
The "Bechdel" test is pointless.
Not so. It has a point. What it was never intended to be was a catch-all litmus test.

Indeed, the comic which marks the first appearance of what would become known as the Bechdel Test didn't call it a test at all. It was simply "The Rule" - essentially a thought exercise which functioned as a kind of sorting process.
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