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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 25 2013, 08:05 AM   #46
Silversmok3
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
But aren't Khan and Marcus' views subjective? Given that, as you said, Marcus wanted a "proper military", and that Starfleet is certainly the governmental organization that would have to deal with the Klingons, doesn't that tell us that they are indeed a military organization, just one that is more varied in purpose and perhaps overstocked with scientists?
Marcus' point in reviving Khan was to ENHANCE Starfleet's combat repertoire. He felt, rightly or wrongly, that Starfleet was not martially prepared to take on the Klingons and win. Hence his "thawing" of Khan and the creation of the Vengance, which is the largest Federation ship yet seen in the series.

Just because a military force isn't experienced doesn't make it any less of a military. Lets look at the combat record of Starfleet in the new universe.

Starfleet gets curb stomped by a future Romulan spacecraft. 6 billion dead, an entire planet w/ attendant resources and culture savagely destroyed, and half of Earth's fleet is lost with all hands. To put that in modern perspective, that would be akin to half of the US Navy being wiped out by ONE ship.

Now, decades later, there's a good chance of a for-real war. Considering Starfleet got its hiney kicked in the last battle, we really can't blame Admiral Marcus for having a crisis of confidence in the fleet. A real-life historical analogue would be the US Military in the early years of WWII. Many of our ships, aircraft, and infantry tactics were severely out of date compared to the modernized forces of the Axis. That didn't mean we didn't have a military, just one without modern battle experience.
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Old June 25 2013, 10:47 AM   #47
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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My suspicion, in fact, is that the MACOs are the military of United Earth, and that this remains the case well into the 24th century.
You have zero evidence to support this speculation. MACOs are only seen in ENT. The fact remains that Starfleet is CALLED the military at several points in the franchise, acts like the military in several ways, and has military structure and traditions, in addition to being the only branch of the Federation we EVER see engaged in battle.

Your objection that Trek is about Starfleet fails because A) It's actually about a specific set of characters and B) We still manage to see non-Starfleet character. Seriously, with the DOMINION WAR, wouldn't you at least expect some other military branch to be mentioned ?

I'm sorry, but this other UFP military you're talking about you just made up.

Primarily, the fact that various individuals have said at various times that most Starfleet vessels are NOT designed purely for combat.
That doesn't tell us what the ships do most of the time, and contradicts some of the dialogue as well.

Secondarily, it's obvious that Starfleet is incredibly active throughout the galaxy even in peace time
Right, like the regular military.

Did you expect me to counter them with "yep"?
I expected you to address my points.

Hell, the only people that's even a question for are Worf and Yar, because they served as TACTICAL officers.
So Sulu is a scientist ? And Uhura ?

That they learned some science in their training doesn't make them scientists. Otherwise pretty much everybody in the edcucated world today is a scientist.

"these guys" probably don't have any ships, and wouldn't need them if they did. Most battles appear to be fought on the ground anyway.
Most battles appear ? We have seen a grand total of ONE ground battle, in DS9. Where do you get this stuff, anyway ?
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Old June 25 2013, 02:02 PM   #48
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Really, all we need to do is go back and watch TOS. Starfleet is very clearly the military and was depicted as one. Even in the other shows everything we see Starfleet doing is consistent with what a military does and is expected to do. So we have a few characters in the other shows actually stating Starfleet isn't military. That's more a reflection of ignorant writers than it is any canonical fact.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:14 PM   #49
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My suspicion, in fact, is that the MACOs are the military of United Earth, and that this remains the case well into the 24th century.
You have zero evidence to support this speculation. MACOs are only seen in ENT. The fact remains that Starfleet is CALLED the military at several points in the franchise...
Actually, twice.

Once by David Marcus in a fit of frustration (to which Carol disagrees) and once by Ben Sisko in reference to Leyton's coup. Both times the comparison is made is when Starfleet caught doing something INCREDIBLY illegal, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Your objection that Trek is about Starfleet fails because A) It's actually about a specific set of characters
All of whom are IN STARFLEET.

OTOH, we do have some non-Starfleet characters in the Bajoran Militia -- a military organization -- for whom it is apparently common knowledge that Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships."

Seriously, with the DOMINION WAR, wouldn't you at least expect some other military branch to be mentioned ?
I would have expected ALOT of things to be mentioned in the Dominion War. Especially telling is the fact that we never see or hear anything about Klingon or Jem'hadar troops in a land action until the Siege of AR-558, which appears to be atypical in every possible way.

But that's Star Trek for you: it's a drama, not a documentary. If it isn't relevant to that particular episode or one particular character, nobody's going to mention it.

I'm sorry, but this other UFP military you're talking about you just made up.
Much like the MACOs were "just made up" fifteen minutes prior writing the script for "The Expanse." And where were they, exactly, when Klaang running around in Broken Bow being chased by Suliban?

That doesn't tell us what the ships do most of the time, and contradicts some of the dialogue as well.
It contradicts NONE of the dialog. Only Defiant and Vengeance have EVER been described as built primarily for combat, and both times it was considered a pretty big deal.

I expected you to address my points.
Which I did. You implied these points were relevant to the definition of "military organization." They are not.

Hell, the only people that's even a question for are Worf and Yar, because they served as TACTICAL officers.
So Sulu is a scientist ?
In his TOS debut, Sulu was a botanist.

And Uhura ?
Xenolinguist. Judging by her ability to stare down pissed-off Klingon troopers, she's also an aspiring anthropologist.

That they learned some science in their training doesn't make them scientists.
That they use their science background to expand their knowledge, to interact with and study other cultures, and collect data for analysis and scholarly debate back home, DOES.

Most battles appear ?
Yes. Especially in the 24th century we encounter a dizzying number of worlds torn by decades of intense ground combat, including:
Setlik III
Minos Korvo
Turkana IV
Solaris V
Kespritt
Angosia
Acamar III
Mordan IV
Krios Prime
Occupied Bajor (and later, the Bajoran Civil War).

That, just off the top of my head, is ten instances of extensive land wars, many of which involved the entire population of their planets for years or decades, resulting in millions of deaths and massive worldwide destruction. By comparison: Starfleet in the 24th century is depicted as having a handful of skirmishes in deep space resulting in the loss of perhaps a few dozen vessels and rarely anything amoounting to a full-scale war. The biggest combat operation of the TNG era is the Borg Invasion of 2367, involving an armada of 40 starships and over 12,000 officers.

Put that in perspective for a moment: Starfleet sees less combat in half a century then any of the above planets in a bad year. That is what I mean when I say that most combat takes place on the ground: because most WARS take place on the ground.

And lest you try to claim the Domion War changed all that, I'll remind you that Bashir's thinktank concluded that the Federation stood to loose up to nine hundred billion lives if they didn't find a way to beat the Dominion. Starfleet may be big, but it sure as hell doesn't have half a trillion officers, which means that the Dominion War NECESSARILY has a ground phase in which all of those civilians would be in the direct line of fire. Nine hundred billion casualties in a GROUND WAR would be the equivalent of every war Earth has experienced in the last 100 years, all happening simultaneously and duplicated on hundred different planets and a thousand different colonies. That would require a massive ground force -- not less than half a billion soldiers -- spread across the entire Federation.

You expect there's half a billion Starfleet officers? Somehow I doubt it. What's more, if you're going to maintain a land force with tens or hundreds of millions of members whose job it is to fight ground battles against outside invaders, you probably wouldn't call that STARfleet.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:28 PM   #50
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

OTOH, we do have some non-Starfleet characters in the Bajoran Militia -- a military organization -- for whom it is apparently common knowledge that Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships."
Yet the Klingons classify the Enterprise as a "Federation battlecruiser" in The Search for Spock. Twice in TOS it's mentioned that a Constitution-class starship can devastate the surface of a planet (A Taste of Armageddon/Bread and Circuses). Starfleet carries out wargames (The Ultimate Computer/Peak Performance).

And I would classify the Defiant as a warship.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:28 PM   #51
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
That's more a reflection of ignorant writers than it is any canonical fact.
What's ignorant about it? The writers CONSCIOUSLY chose to depict Starfleet as being something other than a military organization. There are alot of reasons for this, the main one being an attempt to start a conversation about the nature and scope of militarism in civilized society (a conversation that Americans are uniquely uncomfortable having).

OTOH, your position is that it is inconceivable that any organization could participate in combat WITHOUT being a military; it is a possibility of which you are choosing to remain ignorant.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:35 PM   #52
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

OTOH, your position is that it is inconceivable that any organization could participate in combat WITHOUT being a military; it is a possibility of which you are choosing to remain ignorant.
But they aren't just a participant in combat. We see Starfleet making battleplans and never in conjunction with another body that could be claimed to be the military arm of the Federation. Never once has such a body been mentioned in the Federation-era even though they were close to war several times and we know they fought several conflicts. When they went to show the flag on the Romulan border in Angel One, it was Starfleet doing it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its usually a duck.
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Old June 25 2013, 05:54 PM   #53
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Wasn't it a Starfleet official who signed the treaty that ended the Dominion War?
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Old June 25 2013, 06:03 PM   #54
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

OTOH, we do have some non-Starfleet characters in the Bajoran Militia -- a military organization -- for whom it is apparently common knowledge that Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships."
Yet the Klingons classify the Enterprise as a "Federation battlecruiser" in The Search for Spock.
They also described Genesis as a "doomsday weapon" and referred to the Federation as "a gang of galactic criminals."

This, from a species that didn't have a word for "peace" until Kurzon Dax taught it to them, isn't all that surprising.

And I would classify the Defiant as a warship.
So would Kira. Hence her amazement.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:15 PM   #55
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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And I would classify the Defiant as a warship.
So would Kira. Hence her amazement.
You're fighting awfully hard against a whole lot of evidence. When was the last time we sent NOAA or NASA to fight a war instead of the military?

Plus, the Genesis device could easily be seen as "doomsday weapon". David Marcus, McCoy, Khan and Kruge could all see the devastation such a device could easily create if misused.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:17 PM   #56
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

OTOH, your position is that it is inconceivable that any organization could participate in combat WITHOUT being a military; it is a possibility of which you are choosing to remain ignorant.
But they aren't just a participant in combat. We see Starfleet making battleplans and never in conjunction with another body that could be claimed to be the military arm of the Federation.
Argument From Ignorance Redux: Not only can you not imagine Starfleet being anything other than a military, you can't imagine any OTHER military organization existing at all.

Which means to you, Starfleet is the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines, the Military Police, the NSA, the CIA, the FBI and the Coast Guard all rolled into one. Because surely a Federation of planets with a hundred different members and nearly a trillion citizens only has room for ONE organization to do anything ever.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its usually a duck.
And Starfleet doesn't walk or quack like one; really, your argument boils down to "Well it has feet and flies... what else could it be?"
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Old June 25 2013, 06:31 PM   #57
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

And I would classify the Defiant as a warship.
So would Kira. Hence her amazement.
You're fighting awfully hard against a whole lot of evidence. When was the last time we sent NOAA or NASA to fight a war instead of the military?
1992.

Besides, Kira's statement is evidence TO THE CONTRARY: Starfleet really doesn't believe in warships, and Defiant is the exception that proves the rule.

Plus, the Genesis device could easily be seen as "doomsday weapon"
Yes, in exactly the same way that Starfleet could easily be seen as a military organization.

It's a matter of definitions in how those two things are INTENDED to be used. If the situation called for it, there's no doubt the Federation would use the Genesis device to cleanly eliminate one of its enemies and then pave over their transformed corpses with a new colony world. But "Doomsday Weapon" isn't what Genesis was created for in the same way that "space military" isn't what Starfleet was created for.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:32 PM   #58
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

Which means to you, Starfleet is the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines, the Military Police, the NSA, the CIA, the FBI and the Coast Guard all rolled into one. Because surely a Federation of planets with a hundred different members and nearly a trillion citizens only has room for ONE organization to do anything ever.
Just one piece of actual evidence of the existence of another military organization? You should be able to come up with one in six-hundred hours of material.

Face it, in a society of a trillion people, the only time we ever see anyone do anything of a military nature it's connected with Starfleet.

Just a few quick questions: with Worf being a Klingon, wouldn't he actually want to join the Federation's military arm? Wouldn't the Klingons want to deal with the actual military arm of the Federation if they value strength? Same for the Romulans? When the Federation wants to make a show of strength, why do they always send Starfleet? When a war is about to break out why is it always Starfleet on the front-lines?

Twice, during battles with the Borg (Wolf 359, Sector 001) all we see are Starfleet ships. When the Federation decides to blockade the Romulans, it's Starfleet ships doing the blockading. When we see planetside fights, it's Starfleet.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:34 PM   #59
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I said "fight a war" not used for a military purpose.
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Old June 25 2013, 06:34 PM   #60
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, twice.
Even once is enough. And twice is "several".

Once by David Marcus in a fit of frustration (to which Carol disagrees)
She disagrees with his interpretation of Reliant's message, not the use of the word "military".

You also forgot Star Trek VI, which suggests "dismantling" Starfleet twice in response to the Klingon threat dissapearing, which despite the idiocy of the suggestion, implies that Starfleet's primary mission is safeguarding the Federation.

All of whom are IN STARFLEET.
We've seen characters from outside Starfleet as regulars. Tom Paris, Quark, etc. So, no. Not "all". In fact, you admit so in your next sentence !

OTOH, we do have some non-Starfleet characters in the Bajoran Militia -- a military organization -- for whom it is apparently common knowledge that Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships."
Dedicated warships. Even runabouts have weapons.

But that's Star Trek for you: it's a drama, not a documentary. If it isn't relevant to that particular episode or one particular character, nobody's going to mention it.
Do you concede that there is zero evidence for the existence of a separate military branch beyond ENT's MACOs ?

Much like the MACOs were "just made up" fifteen minutes prior writing the script for "The Expanse."
Eddie, we saw them ON THE SHOW. YOU made up the other stuff. It's risible that you try to equate canon with fanfic.

It contradicts NONE of the dialog.
You are incorrect, again. Someone mentioned Decker Sr's comments in The Doomsday Machine, already.

Which I did. You implied these points were relevant to the definition of "military organization." They are not.
You think military ranks, parlance, terms and hierarchy are irrelevant to the definition of "military" ? How about armed cruisers ?

In his TOS debut, Sulu was a botanist.
Come on, Eddie. Stop trying to desperately find tidbits that allow you to ignore other posters' points. Sulu is the helmsman. But if you want to play, ok: Repeat for all the non-science characters I named.

Xenolinguist.


That they use their science background to expand their knowledge, to interact with and study other cultures, and collect data for analysis and scholarly debate back home, DOES.
Again: by that logic we are ALL scientists, making the term useless.

Yes. Especially in the 24th century we encounter a dizzying number of worlds torn by decades of intense ground combat, including:
We're talking about STARFLEET, Eddie.

You expect there's half a billion Starfleet officers? Somehow I doubt it.
Let's see. 150 member PLANETS. Even if each planet only contributes three million people to Starfleet, I already have you covered. It's irrelevant, mind you, because you're trying to focus on ground stuff while I'm talking about the general military aspect.

The writers CONSCIOUSLY chose to depict Starfleet as being something other than a military organization.
No. Something other than a strictly military organisation. If they wanted it to be non-military, they shouldn't have given them all the trappings of such an organisation.
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