RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,694
Posts: 5,213,515
Members: 24,208
Currently online: 730
Newest member: meshman63


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 24 2013, 11:33 PM   #31
Stoek
Commander
 
Location: Stoek
View Stoek's Twitter Profile
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Sci wrote: View Post
tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

See, that's the mistake people keep making. The Pact was never meant to be just another Big Bad, another basis for war stories. Destiny was the biggest war/action story you could ever have, and in the wake of that it would've been foolish to try to top it, so the decision was made to go in a different direction, a subtler and more sociopolitical direction. The big conflict is ended, the chessboard has been knocked over, and now the survivors have to rebuild, to establish new relationships and power dynamics, to try out new approaches in a new, transformed galaxy. Powers that once dominated the quadrant are weakened, and that opens the door for formerly marginalized powers to become prominent, and they're jockeying for position and advantage both with the old powers and with one another.
But even with no war in the series, the Typhon Pact stories, for the most part, have been mediocre and subpar, since the Pact hasn't even offered that Cold War feel,
Given the events of Zero Sum Game, Rough Beasts of Empire, Plagues of Night, Raise the Dawn, and Brinkmanship? I really don't know how you can say that Star Trek: Typhon Pact hasn't offered "that Cold War feel."

and when compared to other Trek mini-series, such as "Double Helix", "Mission: Gamma" or "The Captain's Table", the Typhon Pact just pales in comparison, and a number of the plots seem to be reused over and over in the series, or are so similar to one another (how many times have we seen the Federation implant or extract a spy in the series already?)
A spy, or a short-term covert operative?

By my count, we saw Federation spies in Brinkmanship and we saw a short-term covert operation in Zero Sum Game. Had the Federation any decent spies on Romulus, the crises in Rough Beasts/Plagues/Dawn might have been averted.

that the series just hasn't lived up to what was established in "Singular Destiny" for the "jumping off point"; it's landed flat on its face instead of flying.
Don't agree at all. By my count, the only weak entry in Typhon Pact was Seize the Fire. Zero Sum Game is a wonderful, James-Bond-meets-John-le-Carre thriller, and Brinkmanship kept me on the edge of my seat, and Plagues/Dawn is just one of the absolute best duologies of the past thirteen years.
I agree with most of what Mr. Bennett and Sci posted.

I would personally add that for me the allure of the TP storyline is the challenge it offers to die hard Trek fans like myself who credit Trek as an influence on their world view. Basically I read it like this, "Oh so the idea of co-operation is a good thing? Well can you continue to hold this view when the people co-operating hold views that are in opposition to yours?" When it's beings coming together that we mostly agree with it's a lot easier. But when they hold views that we find challenging, distasteful or just downright repugnant? Well then suddenly it gets a lot more difficult. Frankly considering how KRAD has played up the differences between the UFP and the Klingon Empire, and the challenge of being allied with an entity that we often have fundamental differences of belief with, that he would expand that idea into the Typhon Pact (who themselves have some pretty significant differences of belief and opinion within their own ranks) creating in my opinion one of the most original and compelling groups in the entire history of Star Trek (and I mean all of Trek, not just the novels).

About my only disagreement is that I actually liked Seize the Fire quite a bit. It made the next book in the Titan series all the more disappointing to me.
Stoek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 06:31 AM   #32
Frontier
Vice Admiral
 
Frontier's Avatar
 
Location: Fifth Circle of Hell, IE: Pennsylvania
View Frontier's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Frontier
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time. Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter. Hate is not a strong enough binding force, thankfully. They may win some battles, but they'll lose the proverbial war.

That said it's a good story device and I like it. I even had the same idea years ago in my own thoughts - of a bunch of "evil empires" banding together as an anti-Federation. I'm sure many of us have thought of such at one time or another. I'm surprised it didn't happen on-screen, TBH.
__________________
Me on Tumblr
Me on Twitter

Frontier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 08:00 AM   #33
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Frontier wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time. Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter.
I agree that at some point, it's likely that the Typhon Pact will splinter. But that doesn't mean it will collapse. And I think that the Romulan Star Empire and the Gorn Hegemony seem to be natural candidates for closer relations in an alliance based on more than exploitative opportunism.

That said it's a good story device and I like it. I even had the same idea years ago in my own thoughts - of a bunch of "evil empires" banding together as an anti-Federation.
But they're not a bunch of "evil empires." This is Star Trek, not a George W. Bush State of the Union Address. The Romulans under Kamemor are a prime example of this, as are the Gorn. And that's to say nothing of the Tholians, who are implacably hostile yet understandably so, given what the Federation did to them in VAN.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 11:01 AM   #34
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

But they're not a bunch of "evil empires." This is Star Trek, not a George W. Bush State of the Union Address. The Romulans under Kamemor are a prime example of this, as are the Gorn. And that's to say nothing of the Tholians, who are implacably hostile yet understandably so, given what the Federation did to them in VAN.
It's a fine line to draw but I prefer to think of the Typhon Pact as an organization which is a collection of now much-better fleshed out species but ones which still have values diametrically opposed to the Federation. It's not a group of "villains" (Christopher and David Mack were very clear on that) but they don't consider the Federation's principles worth a hill of beans with rare exceptions.

I'd like to see it come together and no longer be, "And the Breen **** over their allies again this week" but I'd also like it to take a formal stand against the Feddie's values. Either that or remain hostile and become more benevolent.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 03:19 PM   #35
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Frontier wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, the Typhon Pact isn't built on what makes the Federation strong. They're all individual empires of opportunists. Their cooperation will be short-lived; a few years, perhaps a decades worth of story time.
You're forgetting Enterprise. It showed us that in the 2150s, the Vulcans and Andorians were both imperialist powers constantly on the brink of war with each other, and the Tellarites weren't much different. And yet within a few years, they learned to move past their differences and forge an alliance that would last for centuries. Societies can change and grow. The factions in power can be thrown out and replaced with leaders who have different agendas and goals, as happened with Vulcan; or their leaders can just learn to make peace with former enemies, as with the Andorians and Tellarites.


Eventually, one race will depart and not long after it'll splinter. Hate is not a strong enough binding force, thankfully.
But they're not bound by hate. They're bound by mutual self-interest. In Destiny, President Bacco convinced them that they needed to band together against the threat of the Borg, that they'd be stronger together than apart. But she used heavy-handed, borderline coercive tactics to ensure their cooperation. So the Pact's founders realized she was right -- that they would be stronger and better able to defend their self-interest if they cooperated for their mutual defense. And yet they didn't appreciate the Federation's 800-pound gorilla act, seeing it as just another imperialist power throwing its weight around, and so decided to form an alternative union so that neither the Federation nor anyone else could push them around anymore. That's not hate, it's just the desire for autonomy and self-determination.

So it's a mistake to call them a bunch of "evil empires." Most of them see the Federation -- or their Klingon allies, in the Kinshaya's view -- as the evil empire, the powerful cultural imperialists throwing their weight around and threatening other nations' sovereignty. They see the Pact as a defense against such domination.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 1/21/14 including non-spoiler discussion for Rise of the Federation Book 2

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 04:31 PM   #36
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

^ And the Pact itself isn't "imperialist"? Somehow I find that hard to believe.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 04:32 PM   #37
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Most of the members are less about taking other people's stuff than keeping their own, I think.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 04:54 PM   #38
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

^ The Federation doesn't take what it isn't freely given. It's not the Terran Empire, you know.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 05:15 PM   #39
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

The Federation sadly promotes the EVILS of equality and democracy.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 05:24 PM   #40
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

^Even a democratic society can get imperious in its treatment of others, as many, many Second and Third World "beneficiaries" of American intervention could tell you. It's not good to have one unilateral superpower, no matter how benevolent it may believe itself to be.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 1/21/14 including non-spoiler discussion for Rise of the Federation Book 2

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 05:46 PM   #41
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Even a democratic society can get imperious in its treatment of others, as many, many Second and Third World "beneficiaries" of American intervention could tell you. It's not good to have one unilateral superpower, no matter how benevolent it may believe itself to be.
The United States' consistent inability (and in many cases) unwillingness to live up to many of its own stated doctrines from the founding of said nation onward points this out but, however, I'm not sure a rival superpower makes things any better. Rival nations (France and Britain, the Germans and British, the Ottomons and Hungary) seem to bring out the worst in each other as opposed to the opposite.

In addition to the threat of MAD, the Typhon Pact are just as likely to make the Federation worse as the Klingon Empire did Kirk's era.

Then again, I'm not the writer. I'm just a fan.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 25 2013, 05:58 PM   #42
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

^Perhaps. Good intentions often produce bad results, especially if the wrong method is employed to pursue them. It's just important to understand that nations rarely consider themselves "evil." They're usually trying to do what they think is best for their own people, but different nations have conflicting priorities and worldviews and that's where conflict comes from. Simplifying it to good vs. evil is usually just propaganda that gets in the way of understanding the real issues and causes. True, a lot of fiction does dumb down politics to good vs. evil, but Star Trek has rarely done so. Even the Klingons, who were generally pretty irredeemable in TOS, were shown more sympathetically in "Day of the Dove," and it was stated in their first appearance that they would one day be friends with the Federation.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 1/21/14 including non-spoiler discussion for Rise of the Federation Book 2

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 26 2013, 07:14 AM   #43
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ And the Pact itself isn't "imperialist"? Somehow I find that hard to believe.
Imperialism has a funny way of making itself invisible to those who practice it.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 30 2013, 08:30 AM   #44
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
The Federation sadly promotes the EVILS of equality and democracy.
Sure. What the Federation did to the Tholians in the era of the Vanguard starbase arguably legitimately makes it some kind of villain in the eyes of the Tholians, especially given the generally much longer individual lifespans of Federation species. Continued Tholian hostility towards the Federation makes sense, given the potentially catastrophic outcome of the Shedai experiments.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 1 2013, 06:54 AM   #45
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: So what do you think of the Typhon Pact (as an organization)?

__________________
Over the course of many encounters and many years, I have successfully developed a standard operating procedure for dealing with big, nasty monsters. Run away. Me and Monty Python.
Harry Dresden - Blood Rites (The Dresden Files #6)
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.