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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.30%
A 161 21.58%
A- 101 13.54%
B+ 82 10.99%
B 58 7.77%
B- 27 3.62%
C+ 40 5.36%
C 38 5.09%
C- 25 3.35%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.83%
Voters: 746. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 25 2013, 01:26 AM   #4351
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
26. Maybe Admiral Marcus could carry out a coup and take over the Sol system, but he couldn't possibly take over the entire Federation.
Why not? Admiral Leyton thought he had a shot at controlling the Federation in Homefront/Paradise Lost.
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Old June 25 2013, 01:52 AM   #4352
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
I know exactly how Spock took it
Well your comments in this thread indicate that you don't.

seeing ones planet be destroyed is several orders of magnitude worse than seeing ones best friend die.
Ever heard of the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back" ?



So it's realistic, then.



Sure it does. We've discussed that at length.



By what metric ?



You might have missed it in the first movie, but he had a very, very different childhood from Prime Kirk.



Then I'll say this for him, he's consistent.



Yeah but we're talking about Odo, here. Vulcans have much more violent emotions than humans.



How would the Klingons know Starfleet was even there ? Plausible deniability.



Oh, I wish people would stop making that parallel. The new Trek movies are NOTHING like Star Wars. Action doesn't equal Star Wars.



Actually it almost withered away and died for the reverse reason.



It felt like TOS, actually. Quite a bit.

This is not reinventing Star Trek, instead this is killing the franchise
Please do not confuse your appreciation for a movie with its level of success. The box office revenues disagree with you.

And finally two more points: Starfleet feels too much like an army and those caps really suck!
Starfleet has always felt like the military, and they've had caps before. They just never wore them. Hell, there was one in the very first pilot.
1. I do know how he took it.

2. Maybe Spock would have cracked if he had really known Kirk well or they were friends, but Spock disliked Kirk's style of captaincy, so the emotional connection is not there.

3. It is no where near realistic, the fact we have Kirk as captain with less than two years of experience as a Starfleet officer throws professionalism and career advancement out of the window. Films are not realistic but some are far more implausible than others, STID is such a film.

4. So admiral Marcus wants a war, big deal, the movie just uses this as emotional shlock just to get the emotions pumping with Kahn, Kirk, Spock and Uhura. Marcus is just a one-dimensional character and the really interesting bit -- an admiral wanting to start a war -- is just brushed aside.

5. By the metric of Vulcan discipline, emotional restraint and what we know about Vulcans and Spock in general.

6. Then giving his background what were Starfleet thinking making him the captain of the Enterprise? What makes Kirk so special (seriously the movie gives you the answer; pure dumb luck) when should it be Spock as the captain?

7. Agreed, consistently bad and stupid.

8. So do changelings, they have a mean temper and a powerful racist streak. Odo had some festering emotions to yet he composed himself with dignity. Ironically Spock in this movie talks about dignity and how clinging to his Vulcan ideals is the answer yet conveniently forgets them at the end.

9. The Klingons are not that stupid, they would have suspected a Starfleet ship was hidden somewhere in there system. And since when has an enemies plausible deniability stopped the Klingons from attacking? Klingons don't work that way, and maybe that could have worked had the movie's adversary been say the Romulans or Cardassians. But Klingons are something different.

10. The things which differentiated Star Trek from Star Wars are not overtly present or really noticeable in STID.

11. Yes it did, it suffered from fatigue, and now it's going to die from oversimplification and a lack of identity.

12. STID and TOS are worlds apart: special effects, characters, pace, plot, morality, ethics, sci-fi. They are north and south, up and down, east and west... You get the picture!

13. Box office revenues are no guarantee of quality or of a continued existence of a franchise. There is nothing truly distinguishable or special about the NuTrek characters, and from the basis of just two movies we still know rather little about them, we think we know them well cos of TOS but they are a totally different set of characters due to the altered timeline. The only reason we had two new trek films was because Hollywood was running out of franchises to rape/monetize.

Unfortunately the STID formula (nonsensical plot, cartoonish extreme characters, lack of pacing, emotional frenzy and oversimplification; this applies to many other new sci-fi movies to) is going to be repeated again should there be another sequel. But Hollywood will be too scared to try something really different, so they'll want the same tired old formula in the hopes that it will lure hundreds of millions of dollars. They are NEVER going to change from this formula because these days it is not about the films it is about the money and the tens of millions paid for advertising and actor's salaries (which comprise the bulk of a film's costs).

Besides a franchise which does the same old formula, or worse still rips off directly from older episodes or movies, is going to stagnate very quickly. Now Star Trek is at the mercy of an audience whose sense of artistic style is utter trivia, and who go to see films for escapism and for no other merit. With STID, Star Trek has lost its distinctiveness, and if you can tell me ten things which made this movie really stand out from the rest of the crowd this year and the last one well... You couldn't because this movie is just a remake or adaptation of TWOK, we've seen it before, it has been done to death before.

If a third movie will be made it will more than likely be a disaster because the writers will just do the same thing and make it really obvious and dumbed down. But have no fear because even if the third movie fails or doesn't garner the success and money Hollywood wants, we will have another reboot in several years time and once more the franchise can be monetized. STID just condemned Star Trek to that future, JJ Abrams could have done something different he could have taken a more ballsy approach or tried to emulate some of Trek's more finer qualities: politics, morality, actual character development, character studies and ethics.

Any new Star Trek films will go down STID's route. Which is why I pray the next ST director and writers will come up with something which is thought-provoking and has the balls to go at its pace and not pander to the audience. Maybe a miracle will happen, but my hopes for that are very low indeed.
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Old June 25 2013, 01:58 AM   #4353
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Goddamn, you might want to get down off your high-horse before you get a nosebleed.

Now Star Trek is at the mercy of an audience whose sense of artistic style is utter trivia, and who go to see films for escapism and for no other merit.
Sure as fuck beats being bored for two hours.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:01 AM   #4354
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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You know, you're entitled to your opinion, but have you even watched the original Star Trek? How can Kirk leading landing parties be considered wrong in-universe?
It's just an aspect I've never really liked about Star Trek full stop, TNG took a better approach where Picard was not obliged to lead every single away team. It's just a really corny way of getting the captain character to bond with the lesser characters and to get him into the action. Having said that the TNG movies were rather Picard-centric and the ending always involved him at the climax, but I'm okay with that because I rather liked the whole; Picard is a living legend sort of thing. After seven series and some movies I thought the cliché was appropriate.

But NuKirk feels like he's only the captain because he has the pips, he bosses people around and admiral Pike made him a captain. Maturity, captaincy and NuKirk are things which are mutually exclusive so Kirk just comes off as some douche or prick for the first half of the movie.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:05 AM   #4355
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Lots of young men are douchebags. I doubt Prime Kirk was all that different.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:12 AM   #4356
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Goddamn, you might want to get down off your high-horse before you get a nosebleed.

Now Star Trek is at the mercy of an audience whose sense of artistic style is utter trivia, and who go to see films for escapism and for no other merit.
Sure as fuck beats being bored for two hours.
With escapism no one ever gets bored, and that's what nearly all movies do, so if you never want to use your brain you are in nirvana!

It really comes down to culture, and films are a key part of modern day culture (something which has been dying for ages) but right now we seem to be stifling from a lack of creativity. STID is a prime example, it could have done more, it could have been two movies, but... Something is just missing from it.

This youtube video explains it best about this movie and what it so sorely lacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7GXxooffR8
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Old June 25 2013, 02:18 AM   #4357
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I was born in 1971 and as far back as I can remember people have been complaining about dumb Hollywood movies. People called The Wrath of Khan a dumb movie.

The good old days weren't always good, as Billy Joel said.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:21 AM   #4358
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Would you mind structuring your replies, please ? It's hard to follow otherwise.

Ln X wrote: View Post
1. I do know how he took it.
Then what's the problem ?

3. It is no where near realistic, the fact we have Kirk as captain with less than two years of experience as a Starfleet officer throws professionalism and career advancement out of the window.
I don't think this reply is particularily honest. Either that or you lost track of my post. I was specifically answering you saying that "ST: Into Darkness is a steaming pile of boiling emotions, illogical actions and threadbare plots. ".

4. So admiral Marcus wants a war, big deal,
Ok, so your problem is not that it's not explained, but that you don't like it.

5. By the metric of Vulcan discipline, emotional restraint and what we know about Vulcans and Spock in general.
That's a personal judgment by you. Again, Vulcans are VERY emotional, and discipline does little against the loss of billions of your kin, including your own family.

6. Then giving his background what were Starfleet thinking making him the captain of the Enterprise?
I'll take it that you accept my explanation of the difference.

7. Agreed, consistently bad and stupid.
If you agree that he was like that before, what's the problem ?

8. So do changelings, they have a mean temper and a powerful racist streak.
They also don't have tear ducts. Liquid, remember ?

9. The Klingons are not that stupid, they would have suspected a Starfleet ship was hidden somewhere in there system. And since when has an enemies plausible deniability stopped the Klingons from attacking?
Now you're just ignoring what I tell you. I answered your point with a reasonable possibility. You might not agree, but at least acknowledge that it's there. Furthermore, as you said, Klingons are not stupid. Would they go to war over an unknown foe that wiped out a patrol ? They have no clue who it was. At best, they know an unidentified ship was accosted.

10. The things which differentiated Star Trek from Star Wars are not overtly present or really noticeable in STID.
That was not your claim, but I'll humour you: what are those differences ?

11. Yes it did, it suffered from fatigue, and now it's going to die from oversimplification and a lack of identity.
Again you are confusing your opinion for objective reality. Star Trek can be horrible for you and yet successful, or vice versa.

12. STID and TOS are worlds apart: special effects, characters, pace, plot, morality, ethics, sci-fi. They are north and south, up and down, east and west... You get the picture!
I get the picture but I disagree with you. And who cares about special effects in such a comparison ? You know I was talking about the plot and themes of the original show. Several posters are on record here saying they find the parallels quite apparent.

13. Box office revenues are no guarantee of quality or of a continued existence of a franchise.
I agree about quality, but they definitely are a guarantee of continued existence. In fact, they are the ONLY THING that offers such a guarantee, since movie making is a business.

Unfortunately the STID formula (nonsensical plot, cartoonish extreme characters, lack of pacing, emotional frenzy and oversimplification; this applies to many other new sci-fi movies to) is going to be repeated again should there be another sequel.
Oh, so you'd rather Trek to be dead than to be different from what you want ?

Besides a franchise which does the same old formula, or worse still rips off directly from older episodes or movies, is going to stagnate very quickly.
1) The Friday the 13th movies made ten entries with exactly the same recipe.
2) STID and ST09 are very different movies. Same genre, I'll grant you.

If a third movie will be made it will more than likely be a disaster because the writers will just do the same thing and make it really obvious and dumbed down.
You don't know that. And your use of the word "likely" allows you to not have to acknowledge your error once it's not a disaster.

Any new Star Trek films will go down STID's route. Which is why I pray the next ST director and writers will come up with something which is thought-provoking and has the balls to go at its pace and not pander to the audience.
If they don't pander to the audience, who, exactly, do you want them to pander to ?
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Old June 25 2013, 02:23 AM   #4359
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
With escapism no one ever gets bored, and that's what nearly all movies do, so if you never want to use your brain you are in nirvana!
I use my brain for a living and for a considerable amount of my free time. So you'll excuse me if I don't want to have to scratch my head when I watch movies.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I was born in 1971 and as far back as I can remember people have been complaining about dumb Hollywood movies.
Right. Why do you think we got the stupid Hays code in the 30s ? I mean the ROMANS complained about lazy writing back in antiquity.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:27 AM   #4360
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
I was born in 1971 and as far back as I can remember people have been complaining about dumb Hollywood movies. People called The Wrath of Khan a dumb movie.

The good old days weren't always good, as Billy Joel said.
Yeah there was a lot of bad movies to, but in the good old days there were at a couple of dozen movies which were really good or stood out or were original. These days you are lucky to find a couple of new major films per year which offer anything substantial or are a real pleasure to watch.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:29 AM   #4361
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
These days you are lucky to find a couple of new major films per year which offer anything substantial or are a real pleasure to watch.
I find plenty to watch, but I guess that's because I don't use my brain.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:31 AM   #4362
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
Yeah there was a lot of bad movies to, but in the good old days there were at a couple of dozen movies which were really good or stood out or were original. These days you are lucky to find a couple of new major films per year which offer anything substantial or are a real pleasure to watch.
Well I have to agree that this is just nostalgia talking, here. There are still a handful of good movies every year.

I will grant you that it seems like there is less original stuff, but it has no bearing on profit.

By the way, don't you find discussing like this more interesting than spamming pictures ?
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Old June 25 2013, 02:42 AM   #4363
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
Yeah there was a lot of bad movies to, but in the good old days there were at a couple of dozen movies which were really good or stood out or were original. These days you are lucky to find a couple of new major films per year which offer anything substantial or are a real pleasure to watch.
Well I have to agree that this is just nostalgia talking, here. There are still a handful of good movies every year.

I will grant you that it seems likie there is less original stuff, but it has no bearing on profit.

By the way, don't you find discussing like this more interesting than spamming pictures ?
Oh yeah, I do love a good intellectual discussion, when I first came on with those pictures I was a blathering idiot there and at times I can be a bit of dickhead going in without thinking beforehand (or not thinking enough). But I know my limits, I know when I've crossed the line and I won't try to hide from my mistakes. I messed up three hours ago with the memes so sorry about that.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:55 AM   #4364
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

No problem. I say a lot of stupid stuff thinking it's clever.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:31 AM   #4365
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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This is what I currently think was happening.

Marcus had Khan developing a lot of different weapons for him. The Vengeance and the torpedoes were just two that we know of. Probably that tiny bomb that blew up the "archives" was another.

Khan had to figure out a crazy plan to outthink Marcus, because he wanted to escape with his people. Khan knew about Marcus's plan to try to start a war with the Klingons, so Khan's plan was to trick Marcus into taking advantage of circumstances to start that war.

Khan did not attack the conference on Marcus's orders. As far as Marcus knew, Khan had gone rogue, tried to kill him, and then escaped to warn the Klingons of Marcus's plan.

Khan had already provided Marcus with a loaded gun, the torpedoes. So, thinking that this was his chance to start the war he wanted, Marcus grabbed that gun, handed it to Kirk, and sent Kirk off to start the war. Rather than just taking Khan out, Marcus probably thought the torpedoes would do some hellacious damage and get the Klingons pissed and start the war. Presumably one torpedo would have been enough for that (imagine each torpedo supposedly having a trunk-full of those explosive pills that blew up the "archives"). Of course, Marcus told Kirk that the drones were just to target Khan individually.

But Khan had tricked and outsmarted Marcus. In case Marcus tried to use those torpedoes in such a manner, Khan had, unbeknownst to Marcus, loaded them up with his people to smuggle them out of Marcus's hands. They couldn't be scanned, so for all we know, perhaps they wouldn't even fire at all. Perhaps Khan had reasoned that Marcus wouldn't bring the Vengeance out in the open until the war had already started. Ergo, he would give them to a starship not under Marcus's command to fire, assuming he used them at all.

There.

Questions?

(Did I get it right?)
But if Marcus was that intent on bumping off Kahn and starting a war, then why didn't he check these advanced torpedoes? I mean if Kahn designed them and now that Kahn had gone rogue, then Marcus would have checked or ordered someone to check to see if these torpedoes would do the job (and actually had warheads in them!).
The best way for Khan to do something like that is to fool Marcus into thinking the torpedoes are secure and thoroughly tested before giving him reason to think otherwise. If Marcus believes that that part of his security hasn't been compromised, then it might not occur to him to re-scrutinize them at that point. Having characters that make mistakes is more interesting than having characters that never make mistakes, actually. At least the audience can learn something.

And even if Kahn had fooled Marcus how did he secretly move 82 people out of a heavily guarded complex and into a different one, and then remove the warheads of these torpedoes and place his people in them without anyone noticing? But then if Kahn could move his people without anyone noticing, why not beam them over to some remote location (as Kahn must have the technological know-how if he really is this smart and cunning) and revive them and escape? What's with the torpedo malarkey?
Evidently, the weapons lab/"archives" was destroyed in order to hide the fact that the supermen were stolen in the first place.

It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
"Just doesn't make any sense"? Please.

Actually, it's somewhere in between not making any sense at all and making perfect sense. Saying it's at one extreme is just as dishonest as saying it's at the other. STID is nowhere near the worst Trek film offender on the score of not making sense.
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