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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.17%
A 161 21.44%
A- 101 13.45%
B+ 83 11.05%
B 59 7.86%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.33%
C 38 5.06%
C- 25 3.33%
D+ 11 1.46%
D 13 1.73%
D- 10 1.33%
F 39 5.19%
Voters: 751. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 24 2013, 10:55 PM   #4321
BillJ
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
Though I wouldn't call Kahn savage. It's more like a superiority complex and a disdain for all things ordinary. Calling Kahn savage brings to mind cavemen and lumbering trolls, plus it severely detracts from Kahn's supposed superior intellect.
The Wrath of Khan wrote:
TERRELL: He tortured those people. But none of those people would tell him anything. He went wild. He slit their throats. He wanted to tear the place apart, but he was late. He had to get back to Reliant in time to blow you to bits.
Sounds pretty savage to me.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:01 PM   #4322
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
Though I wouldn't call Kahn savage. It's more like a superiority complex and a disdain for all things ordinary. Calling Kahn savage brings to mind cavemen and lumbering trolls, plus it severely detracts from Kahn's supposed superior intellect.
The Wrath of Khan wrote:
TERRELL: He tortured those people. But none of those people would tell him anything. He went wild. He slit their throats. He wanted to tear the place apart, but he was late. He had to get back to Reliant in time to blow you to bits.
Sounds pretty savage to me.
Reading how that scene plays out in the novelisation was fantastic. I was very disappointed that the comic version didn't wander wider than the movie script. His torture was actually fairly methodical from what I recall but he just ran out of time. Even so, it would have been smarter to beam the scientists up to the Reliant to let someone else carry on the torture while Khan took care of business.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:05 PM   #4323
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
This is what I currently think was happening.

Marcus had Khan developing a lot of different weapons for him. The Vengeance and the torpedoes were just two that we know of. Probably that tiny bomb that blew up the "archives" was another.

Khan had to figure out a crazy plan to outthink Marcus, because he wanted to escape with his people. Khan knew about Marcus's plan to try to start a war with the Klingons, so Khan's plan was to trick Marcus into taking advantage of circumstances to start that war.

Khan did not attack the conference on Marcus's orders. As far as Marcus knew, Khan had gone rogue, tried to kill him, and then escaped to warn the Klingons of Marcus's plan.

Khan had already provided Marcus with a loaded gun, the torpedoes. So, thinking that this was his chance to start the war he wanted, Marcus grabbed that gun, handed it to Kirk, and sent Kirk off to start the war. Rather than just taking Khan out, Marcus probably thought the torpedoes would do some hellacious damage and get the Klingons pissed and start the war. Presumably one torpedo would have been enough for that (imagine each torpedo supposedly having a trunk-full of those explosive pills that blew up the "archives"). Of course, Marcus told Kirk that the drones were just to target Khan individually.

But Khan had tricked and outsmarted Marcus. In case Marcus tried to use those torpedoes in such a manner, Khan had, unbeknownst to Marcus, loaded them up with his people to smuggle them out of Marcus's hands. They couldn't be scanned, so for all we know, perhaps they wouldn't even fire at all. Perhaps Khan had reasoned that Marcus wouldn't bring the Vengeance out in the open until the war had already started. Ergo, he would give them to a starship not under Marcus's command to fire, assuming he used them at all.

There.

Questions?

(Did I get it right?)
But if Marcus was that intent on bumping off Kahn and starting a war, then why didn't he check these advanced torpedoes? I mean if Kahn designed them and now that Kahn had gone rogue, then Marcus would have checked or ordered someone to check to see if these torpedoes would do the job (and actually had warheads in them!).

And even if Kahn had fooled Marcus how did he secretly move 82 people out of a heavily guarded complex and into a different one, and then remove the warheads of these torpedoes and place his people in them without anyone noticing? But then if Kahn could move his people without anyone noticing, why not beam them over to some remote location (as Kahn must have the technological know-how if he really is this smart and cunning) and revive them and escape? What's with the torpedo malarkey?

It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
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Old June 24 2013, 11:13 PM   #4324
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?

Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:14 PM   #4325
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

*bites tongue*
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Old June 24 2013, 11:18 PM   #4326
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.
I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.

It's up there (and goes beyond) with Sisko committing attempted genocide on those Maquis worlds, Picard and the crew just watching as a planet's atmosphere burns and kills the inhabitants while doing nothing about it! So Star Trek has had its muddled moments and occasionally totally destroys its characters with badly thought-out plots and episodes. But STID goes one step further.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:23 PM   #4327
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post

I know that and every other film and movie in existence requires mental gymnastics but that is understandable as it ain't reality, but Star Trek Into Darkness takes this into whole new extremes to the point where it becomes really really distracting, really really obvious and really really annoying.
Whether the gymnastics it takes are acceptable or not is up to each individual viewer. I, personally, had a blast all four times I saw Into Darkness.

Is it a perfect movie? No. But it sure is fun to watch.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:24 PM   #4328
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
It just doesn't make any sense, none of Kahn's actions stack up from a logical viewpoint
Did Khan's actions the other two times we saw him really make sense? He beams up Genesis, yet leaves Kirk in the cave even though he really wants to kill him. Did it make sense to send a single guard with Spock?

Much of Trek requires at least some mental gymnastics to make sense.
This was covered in dialog (someththing like this).

Khan: "Kirk. Your still alove old friend."

Kirk: "Still. old friend. Like a poor marksman you keep missing the target."

Khan: "Perhaps I no longer need to try, Admiral."

(beams up genesis device).

David: "They wouldn't dare take it !!!"

Kirk: "Khan. You have Genesis, but you don't have me. You were going to kill ME khan. You're going to have to come down here. Your going to HAVE to COME DOWN HERE !!!"

Khan: "I've done far worse that kill you. I've hurt you. I shall leave you as you left me. As you left her. Marooned for all eternity in the center of a dead planet. Buried alive, buried alive."

Kirk: "KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN !!!!!"

(Cut to khan relishing in Kirk's scream and defeat.)

Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:29 PM   #4329
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.
Bullshit.

The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it. The whole movie Khan simply couldn't wait to kill Kirk and then right at the end he decides "just kidding!"

KHAN (on viewscreen): Surely I have made my meaning plain. I mean to avenge myself upon you, Admiral. I've deprived your ship of power and when I swing round I mean to deprive you of your life. But I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you.
KHAN: First things first, Captain. ...Kill Admiral Kirk.
KHAN (on intercom): Kill him, Terrell, now!
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Old June 24 2013, 11:33 PM   #4330
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Khan's thinking and reasoning is explained without the need for any mental gynmnastics.
But this is NuKhan, so while similar to the Khan of the Prime universe, this movie distorted his traits and attributes. He now really is a superhuman, who does the whole cliched villain gets captured thing and his emotions are now supercharged and electrified like pretty all of the main characters. Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain. So while Kahn can act and feel threatening, you just have to realise how stupid and convoluted his plan is (and what was his plan after all of that; free his people, start a Klingon/Federation war or both?) and that just really dilutes this character no matter how threatening he can be.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:40 PM   #4331
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post
Which pretty much sacrifices subtle nuances, gravitas and presence for the new Trek Kahn villain.
Are you kidding?

Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.

I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.
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Old June 24 2013, 11:48 PM   #4332
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
The only reason Khan doesn't beam Kirk up and snap his neck is because the script requires it.
This is a wider problem of them making the transporters too universally useful. If they had maintained the restriction that you could only beam someone up with a clear, attuned, communicator signal adjacent to their person then Khan would not be able to beam any Enterprise crew up. That doesn't hold up so well in TWoK, since Kirk picks up Chekov's communicator to shout at Khan though...
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Old June 24 2013, 11:57 PM   #4333
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Are you kidding?

Have you ever seen The Wrath of Khan? Shatner and Montalban chew so much scenery it's unreal. And you know what? It was fun to watch.

I think some fans have forgotten simply how to have fun watching a movie. They've wrapped themselves so completely in the franchise that any deviation from it is seen as a flaw.
Nah I haven't seen TWOK, but people were talking up this the new Kahn and for a villain he was average, he would have been better if the plot were a little more watertight. Even if I had seen TWOK I wouldn't really care if there was any deviation, it's a new universe so different things are going to happen. When I watched STID I went from considering it Star Trek to thinking it to be a really funny comedy given how laughably bad and convulted it all was, and then finally realising this was just a bad movie period.

STID has nothing to offer if you start thinking about it and if you could detach yourself from the incessant action scenes and weird plot twists whilst watching it. In that way STID is a very weird film, it has no concept of pacing, it seems to shy away from quiet moments and thoughtful inflection and to me that is the clearest sign yet that JJ Abrams knew this story was a pile of convoluted garbage that would not hold up. So he had to distract, bamboozle and wow everyone with soap opera moments, action sequence after action sequence and plot twists that made no real sense. STID is a decent action film, but it so fragmented and there is nothing truly memorable (aside from Carol in her underwear) or thought-provoking.

The flaws are so numerous and so obvious I'm surprised so many people overlook them (even the critics). So maybe I'm out of the loop when it comes to watching new films, or perhaps every ones standards have reached rock bottom. So what was considered a stupid movie twenty years ago is now considered deep, thought-provoking and intelligent.

It's a real mystery to me why so many enjoy STID, it's such a mystery that I really do need it spelt out to me concerning what exactly is so great and amazing about this film. Honest to God I really do not see it!
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Old June 25 2013, 12:01 AM   #4334
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.
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Old June 25 2013, 12:10 AM   #4335
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Go back and watch some Star Trek movies with as critical an eye as you seem to have with this one and see how much you enjoy them.
I have and there were stupid moments in many of the movies, but with most of them you could explain them away. And plot holes aside the characterization and depth was just better full stop, so even ignoring the plot holes what makes STID so great when the characters are all cartoon and extreme versions of the TOS ones, and the universe is a really LITERAL interpretation of the prime one.

Insurrection and Nemesis were riddled with problems, but even they in my opinion far outshine this movie. So what has STID got when you can't really apply logic to this film?

I mean if our main characters (Kirk, Spock and Kahn) really have so much depth, could anyone describe these characters, their motivations, history and attributes in more than 1000 words? I mean you could do that with all the important characters in the Trek series (heck even some of the secondary ones in DS9!), and a good film (any good film) is such that you can write an awful lot about the important characters if they have depth or the plot has many layers to it (like Inception for instance).
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