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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 24 2013, 04:55 PM   #616
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The whole point of the film is that he has to grow in order to become the captain he was meant to be, and after finally fumbling through things for a while he accomplished that at the end by realizing vengeance is wrong, being humbled and apologizing, sacrificing his life for his shipmates, treating Carol as a valued officer and member of the Enterprise family and not a potential conquest, and making an impassioned memorial speech, ethics mission statement, and a call for exploration at the end.
I totally agree with that in principle. I just don't think Kirk demonstrates having grown much as far as gender relations goes. And we're so busy connecting the dots on the Trek II homage that his sacrifice doesn't feel organic at all.

The cut scene in Trek '09 where he apologizes to the Gaila-lookalike would have done a lot to make him seem to grow, but the fact JJ cut that scene out says it all about his low-priority he is on character-development.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
How will we live down being compared to a fun billion dollar grossing critically and fan acclaimed film series?!
It's a weak argument to keep sarcastically quipping about box-office figures to prove a movie has critical merit.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
And yeah, you are supposed to laugh at the turbolift scene. I guess the audiences I saw the film with aren't as highbrow as you, because we all thought it was funny and not the abomination before Goddenberry you apparently felt it was.
Congratulations. You outed me. I'm a film-snob and you are one with the common-folk who want nothing more than to enter the theater and forget their cares. How dare I ask for anything more from a movie than a few yuks and 2 hours of escapism?

You see? I can do belittling sarcasm too. It doesn't really further the argument, though.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I and others have accepted it and have come up with deeper meaning behind that scene too, so don't presume to think your rigid and humorless take on how things should be is the norm.
You "came up with it" because it's largely a figment of your imagination and not something that's really evident in the story and how it's presented. If that were the case, JJ wouldn't have all but apologized for it on the talk-show circuit, so he's kind of already confessed that it was gratuitous. I know you feel it is more, but you are grasping at straws.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:59 PM   #617
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post

The cut scene in Trek '09 where he apologizes to the Gaila-lookalike would have done a lot to make him seem to grow, but the fact JJ cut that scene out says it all about his low-priority he is on character-development.


That scene made him look racist in the "they all look alike to me" vein. The scene was wisely cut from the film.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:01 PM   #618
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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Just a freighter pilot? It's like you are making an effort to reduce her somehow.
Reduce her from WHAT though? Not every character in every story has the chops to be an actual action hero even if had a good enough reason. Think Mary Jane, not Black Cat.

She was a freighter captain, and unlike Malcolm (I don't know about Valentine) she was in charge of the ship she was on. So, it's not the same at all.
But Malcolm Reynolds was also a gun slinger and Faye Valentine was a bounty hunter, both of which embraced the outlaw lifestyle as a matter of personal taste. Kassidy Yates may be sympathetic to the Maquis, but she's no outlaw.

Then you go into using terms like "booty call."
It applies. If Kassidy wanted to be an outlaw AND still date Ben Sisko, that's what their relationship would boil down to. That, too, didn't seem to suit her, so instead they ended up getting engaged.

You act like she and Ben were teenagers trying not to get caught by their parents or something.
But they weren't, which is why Kassidy turned herself in.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:13 PM   #619
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post

Compared to what else we have currently I'd so, "Only a third? That's pretty good!"
Compared to Star Trek, it isn't.

Because when it comes to gender stereotypes, "zero" is still preferable to "one third."
Star Trek has plenty of its own gender stereotypes!
The last two movies managed to steer clear of them to a fairly large degree.

Defiance does exactly what it should. It has a wide mix of characters.
And a third of the females characters (or more) are gender stereotypes. If you think perpetuating stereotypes is what science fiction SHOULD do, then it's no wonder you disapprove of STID.

Think about what you are saying. Do you want only homosexual relationships and no heroic, masculine males? It's the mixture that's more important.
That's just it, though: I could count on one hand the number of openly homosexual characters depicted in science fiction between two men. The most prominent of these is Captain Jack Harkness from the Doctor Who universe. That Captain Jack is a homosexual (well, sort of a pan-sexual, but still) is interesting in itself; that he's also a highly developed character with a fascinating origin story -- in addition to being a total badass -- is what makes the character compelling.

In the context of the portrayal of homosexuals in scifi -- and that's what we're talking about, portrayal -- you would prefer we add an additional gay character and not mind if one of them is portrayed as a limp-wristed nancy boy serving as Torchwood's interior decorator.

When it comes to portrayal, a single GOOD character is worth fifty stereotypes. Quality is more important than quantity in that regard.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:16 PM   #620
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The whole idea of Ilia with her pheromones and her ability to ensnare men with her sexuality in a teenage boy's dream. You can't probably get more sexist than this particular fantasy of GR's .
IMO its only Kambatta's sweet-portrayal of llia that counteracts Ilia's sex goddess role.
IMHO, Deltans represent the swinging 60s free-love mindset.
Unlikely, considering TMP was made in 1978.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:19 PM   #621
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The whole idea of Ilia with her pheromones and her ability to ensnare men with her sexuality in a teenage boy's dream. You can't probably get more sexist than this particular fantasy of GR's .
IMO its only Kambatta's sweet-portrayal of llia that counteracts Ilia's sex goddess role.
IMHO, Deltans represent the swinging 60s free-love mindset.
Unlikely, considering TMP was made in 1978.
There are still some leftover hippies even to this day who never changed, you know? People's attitudes don't necessarily change just because the decades flip over. And certainly there is some residual hippie attitude even in TNG, as it morphed into political-correctness.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:25 PM   #622
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post

The cut scene in Trek '09 where he apologizes to the Gaila-lookalike would have done a lot to make him seem to grow, but the fact JJ cut that scene out says it all about his low-priority he is on character-development.


That scene made him look racist in the "they all look alike to me" vein. The scene was wisely cut from the film.
If it's OK to allow Kirk to look like a chauvanist for the sake of showing him "grow", why not some accidental passive racism while he's otherwise trying to apologize for being a wham-bam womanizer?

It's not just like one moment he's going to be an immature brat, full of flaws, and the next moment he's a paragon of virtue. It takes multiple steps forward, and the scene with the lookalike could have been one of them. That it would have been a lightning-rod for criticism is probably true, but then so has this scene in question with Marcus. If JJ and company are the serious auteurs that some are claiming he is, then why not stick to your guns for the sake of artistic purity and leave it in? Personally, I think that scene was cut out for the same reason the flashback with him and his guardian (Uncle?) was cut-out. To favor fast-pace and action above character. My speculation as to their motives is at least as valid as those who have read all this added-depth into the Marcus flesh-flash.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:33 PM   #623
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post

If it's OK to allow Kirk to look like a chauvanist for the sake of showing him "grow", why not some accidental passive racism while he's otherwise trying to apologize for being a wham-bam womanizer?
I've yet to see anyone actually prove that Kirk is a chauvinist in this timeline. He's young and he likes sex. I'm pretty sure you're going to find tons of young people who are exactly the same in the real world.

If JJ and company are the serious auteurs that some are claiming he is...
I've yet to see anyone claim this. J.J. Abrams and Company are people who make movies for money. They understand one simple fact of the business: if you don't make entertaining movies, you won't be making movies for long.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:36 PM   #624
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Compared to Star Trek, it isn't.

Because when it comes to gender stereotypes, "zero" is still preferable to "one third."
Star Trek has plenty of its own gender stereotypes!
The last two movies managed to steer clear of them to a fairly large degree.
Winona Kirk is primarily a wife and mother in that she does nothing else on screen, Amanda is primarily a wife and mother, Gaila is primarily a girlfriend, Nanzeen Contractor is playing a mother whose role was tiny compared to her husband, and Nero mourns his absent wife. Uhura's role in the first film was expanded primarily because of her relationship with Spock, although they found a better balance in the sequel. NuTrek doesn't steer clear of traditional gender roles at all it's just that so few of its women are more than a handful of lines that they barely have a role, let alone a gender role. Even Voyager, which had some decent female characters, had Kes as a carer and girlfriend, Wildman only ever in pregnancy and mommy episodes, Seven of Nine in a massive boob suit, and Seska vamping it up between Chakotay and the Kazon dude. The Romulan commander in Nemesis tries to shag Shinzon the first chance she gets.

Think about what you are saying. Do you want only homosexual relationships and no heroic, masculine males? It's the mixture that's more important.
That's just it, though: I could count on one hand the number of openly homosexual characters depicted in science fiction between two men. The most prominent of these is Captain Jack Harkness from the Doctor Who universe.

In the context of the portrayal of homosexuals in scifi -- and that's what we're talking about, portrayal -- you would prefer we add an additional gay character and not mind if one of them is portrayed as a limp-wristed nancy boy serving as Torchwood's interior decorator.

When it comes to portrayal, a single GOOD character is worth fifty stereotypes. Quality is more important than quantity in that regard.
Er, hello, card waving poof here - I think I know plenty about the absence of gay men in sci fi. I said ONLY homosexual relationships because heterosexual relationships are a gender stereotype. One good character may be worth fifty stereotypes but when you have fifty different characters, some of them are going to be gender stereotypes. Why do you think stereotypes ARE stereotypes?

Do I think that we should never have a camp male character because camp men are a gay stereotype? Newsflash - I know plenty of camp gay men and it doesn't offend me if they are featured on TV. What is worse is when that is the ONLY kind of gay character that's on TV, which is not the case today anywhere near like it was in the seventies and eighties.

If we have a lot of women and two thirds of them are not stereotypical, that is a great step forward from just a few non-stereotypical women. It's also worth noting that the two-thirds non-stereotypical women in Defiance leads to us having more non-stereotypical women than Trek has even with the alleged and contested absence of gender stereotypes.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:47 PM   #625
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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It's also worth noting that the two-thirds non-stereotypical women in Defiance leads to us having more non-stereotypical women than Trek has even with the alleged and contested absence of gender stereotypes.
Then you should be perfectly happy kicking Trek to the curb and discussing the Defiance universe for the next twenty or thirty years.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:59 PM   #626
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
I've yet to see anyone actually prove that Kirk is a chauvinist
Assuming all the women he bedded never expected anything more than he delivered, I'll concede that point. Replace the word chauvanist with "shallow".

However, the cut apology to Gaila implies that he did something he regrets.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:01 PM   #627
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post

However, the cut apology to Gaila implies that he did something he regrets.
Yeah, he used her to gain access to the Kobayashi Maru scenario. He wasn't apologizing for having sex with her.

You'll get no argument from me that he was a douchebag during the Academy section of the film.
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Old June 24 2013, 09:05 PM   #628
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Winona Kirk is primarily a wife and mother in that she does nothing else on screen, Amanda is primarily a wife and mother
That's a stereotype now?

Nero mourns his absent wife.
I now realize you don't actually know what a "gender stereotype" is. This, after the "gender roles" thing, makes strike two.

Uhura's role in the first film was expanded primarily because of her relationship with Spock
Actually, it was expanded because of her relationship with KIRK. Indeed, the very first thing Kirk does when he wakes up on the Enterprise is run to Uhura and ask her about the Klingon distress signal. The fact is, Uhura winds up on bridge duty because of Kirk, not because of Spock.

NuTrek doesn't steer clear of traditional gender roles at all
And "traditional gender roles" and "gender stereotypes" are two COMPLETELY different things.

It's kinda like the difference between Jewish traditions and Jewish stereotypes. It's one thing to show a Jewish officer walking around the bridge with a yarmulke; it's another thing entirely to have that same officer sidle up to Uhura trying to sell her a diamond necklace.

I said ONLY homosexual relationships because heterosexual relationships are a gender stereotype.
And there's strike three.

I'm beginning to realize that you don't actually know anything about gender issues and have been basically talking out of your ass this entire time.
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Old June 24 2013, 10:19 PM   #629
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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Pauln6 wrote: View Post
It's also worth noting that the two-thirds non-stereotypical women in Defiance leads to us having more non-stereotypical women than Trek has even with the alleged and contested absence of gender stereotypes.
Then you should be perfectly happy kicking Trek to the curb and discussing the Defiance universe for the next twenty or thirty years.
Oh I dunno, I might multi-task. Trek's potential hasn't been sucked dry yet and they are very different conceptually.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'm beginning to realize that you don't actually know anything about gender issues and have been basically talking out of your ass this entire time.
Lol - well of course I have! I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I'm not really as 'extreme' as I may sound just because I'm arguing for the contra position.

However, please don't assume that there is a universally accepted definition of the terms 'gender stereotype' and 'gender role'. Different sociologists and different cultures will have different definitions across the world. The kernel of the argument isn't invalidated because you think I've used the wrong label on certain items. If you want to present your contra case by explaining specifically what you do think are the gender stereotypes in Defiance so we can compare and contrast to any stereotypes in Trek, that takes the debate forward. If you think something does not count as a stereotype, then explain your reasons, don't slam your head into a wall.

However, putting Trek on a pedestal when it comes to stereotypes is unsustainable - it has a reduced number because its focus is on a workplace environment and even then there are plenty. However, such an analysis doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more women front and centre and driving forward plot elements forward in any single episode of Defiance.

And of course being a wife/mother can't be anything other than a gender stereotype - lol - but it only really crops up as a 'negative' in a sci fi concept when referring to characters who have no significant defined role outside of being the wife/mother to one of the other characters. Sarek, for example, is the Vulcan ambassador as well as Spock's father and functions in that role during the movie. Winona Kirk on the other hand does not function in her capacity as a starfleet officer on screen at all unless you count how her absence has a negative effect on her role as... a mother. I mention Nero's wife who was only an image because that's it for her - she's Nero's wife. Obviously, the nature of a Trek movie means that support characters will be sketchy at best, often just a few lines of dialogue, or a smiling hologram at worst but there is probably enough to compare.
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Old June 25 2013, 02:00 AM   #630
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I have to say.... this test is stupid.
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