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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 24 2013, 04:33 AM   #256
Greg Cox
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Belz... wrote: View Post
Returns wasn't too bad. It was too much of a homage to I and II to be worth a sequel, but I liked it, and Spacey as Luthor.
Exactly. The movie has it virtues (the airplane scene is terrific), but, in the end, it probably coasted too heavily on nostalgia for the Donner film instead of going its own way.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:50 AM   #257
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Kabraxal wrote: View Post
As for the trucker scene.. yeah, I'll give that one. It was a bit odd that he didn't let it be. Didn't really understand it.
Clark also had a confrontation with another jerk Trucker in MOS, he didn't quite leave it be either! The way he responded was funny, but a bit rude...
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Old June 24 2013, 10:34 AM   #258
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Kabraxal wrote: View Post
I also think what hurts MoS is that Smallville did the origin story already and had done it for 10 years just before this movie came out essentially... and really did it better.
Well that's to be expected from a series vs a movie.

In MoS, that understanding comes... maybe... at the end of the film, when he's had the suit for a while already.
I think that was the whole point of the movie, so I didn't mind.

Just doesn't fit the mythology.
We have to avoid being purists, however. Each version of the same story will be different.

Dream wrote: View Post
Clark also had a confrontation with another jerk Trucker in MOS, he didn't quite leave it be either! The way he responded with funny, but a bit rude...
Yeah, although by that time he wasn't Superman yet. And he didn't beat him up or anything.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:54 PM   #259
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
If we're getting nostalgic, I remember being very disappointed with SUPERMAN II when it first came out because of all the slapstick comedy Lester added--and the way the movie softened Zod and Co. The first movie did an effective job of building up Zod and Ursa and Non as genuinely scary threats. Heck, we're told that Ursa actually murdered children back on Krypton (a line that was conspicuously deleted from the flashback to their trial in SUPERMAN II). After Hackman's comedic take on Luthor, I was looking forward to seeing Superman take on some truly menacing super-villains.

Alas, while the sequel still had it moments, there was also lots of campy silliness with super-breath, expandable Superman logos made out of Saran wrap, and memory-erasing kisses.

Which, to be fair, probably works when you're seven, but I was in college at the time and hoping for something a little more serious!

I felt like the new movie finally gave me the all-out battle between Superman and Zod that I've been waiting for since 1978 . . ..
All of this.

Never cared for Lester's work on the Superman movies.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.
Yep.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:41 PM   #260
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

BillJ wrote: View Post
Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.
Sorry, can't agree:

1) Kryptonians explored space for 100,000 years; yet when faced with the destruction of their world (and in this version no one disagrees with Jor El's assessment); can't/won't evacuate even though they are aware of plenty of habitable worlds in range? WTF?

2) Jor El owns/rides a 'flying dragon' (shades of 'Dragon Riders of Pern, or 'Avatar'.) WTF?

3) All Kryptonians are cloned (ala 'The Matrix'); and genetically designed to be the best at their assigned job/role/function. (This is a first for any version of the Superman mythos.) WTF?

4) The 'sacred Codex' (which is somehow the basis of all cloned Kryptonians); is a black, decaying and desiccated partial skull suspended in a laser beam. WTF?

5) When Clarks is talking to Johnathan Kent about the school bus incident, and Clark asks "Should I have let them die?" and Johnathan answers, "Yes, maybe..." (sorry but for me definitely WTF?)

6) Johnathan dies because he doesn't want Clark going back out to save the family dog - and somehow risk exposing his powers to witnesses (even though if it did appear Clark was killed in that instance Clark could have easily come up with an explanation as to how he lived - and the dog wouldn't be able to tell ANYONE of Clark's powers...) WTF?

7) Kal El (aka Superman), who has spent his life avoiding fights, and was not trained to fight by anyone (least of all Johnathan Kent) can, somehow, defeat three kryptonian soldiers, and in the end General Zod himself (after Zod had acclimated to the Earth's atmosphere and his newfound abilities, including flight which he did in the final combat sequence) -- ALL of whom were genetically engineered as well as trained their entire lives to be nothing but combat soldiers...WTF?

Star Trek: Into Darkness:

1) For some reason Kirk decides to hide the U.S.S. Enterprise in the ocean of a primitive planet. WTF?

2) With 70+ odd genetically engineered 'supermen' in stasis; McCoy couldn't have removed one and used his blood to save Kirk? (Allowing Spock to kill Khan, etc if he so wished.) WTF?

3) The U.S. Enterprise can somehow be pulled/fall into Earth's gravity well/atmosphere 200,000+ miles from Earth (IE while in Lunar orbit.) WTF?

In the ST:ID story context as present, the above are pretty much all the major WTF? moments that make little sense. Overall it's still about half (give or take) of the WTF? moments in Man of Steel
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Old June 24 2013, 07:02 PM   #261
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Noname Given wrote: View Post
1) Kryptonians explored space for 100,000 years; yet when faced with the destruction of their world (and in this version no one disagrees with Jor El's assessment); can't/won't evacuate even though they are aware of plenty of habitable worlds in range?
They A) don't have ships anymore and B) they're not convinced about Jor-El's theory. Only Zod seems to agree.

2) Jor El owns/rides a 'flying dragon' (shades of 'Dragon Riders of Pern, or 'Avatar'.)
That's a WTF plot moment for you ? That they have animals on Krypton ?

3) All Kryptonians are cloned (ala 'The Matrix'); and genetically designed to be the best at their assigned job/role/function. (This is a first for any version of the Superman mythos.)
They're not cloned. They are grown. And I don't see how that's a WTF since it's very clear.

4) The 'sacred Codex' (which is somehow the basis of all cloned Kryptonians); is a black, decaying and desiccated partial skull suspended in a laser beam.
I'm not sure you're clear about what a "WTF moment" is.


5) When Clarks is talking to Johnathan Kent about the school bus incident, and Clark asks "Should I have let them die?" and Johnathan answers, "Yes, maybe..."
You might have missed it, but there's a discussion right after that line.

6) Johnathan dies because he doesn't want Clark going back out to save the family dog - and somehow risk exposing his powers to witnesses
Yes, and that makes perfect sense in context. Although I agree that the tornado should have had a visible effect even at a greater distance, it works for the movie that it didn't.

7) Kal El (aka Superman), who has spent his life avoiding fights, and was not trained to fight by anyone (least of all Johnathan Kent) can, somehow, defeat three kryptonian soldiers, and in the end General Zod himself (after Zod had acclimated to the Earth's atmosphere and his newfound abilities, including flight which he did in the final combat sequence) -- ALL of whom were genetically engineered as well as trained their entire lives to be nothing but combat soldiers...
He doesn't defeat them, so this one is null and void.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:14 PM   #262
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Belz... wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you're clear about what a "WTF moment" is.
Doesn't seem to be, no.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:06 PM   #263
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Returns wasn't too bad. It was too much of a homage to I and II to be worth a sequel, but I liked it, and Spacey as Luthor.
Exactly. The movie has it virtues (the airplane scene is terrific), but, in the end, it probably coasted too heavily on nostalgia for the Donner film instead of going its own way.
Everyone forgets why Singer now has a lifetime pass as a director where the movie houses are concerned. Superman Returns at one point had every actor under the sun and every director attached to it. They all had clauses in their contracts that stated payment for any submissions or screen tests. There was a rumor Nic Cage walked away with a couple of million and did nothing but read the script. The movie was already 300 million in the hole before Singer attacked pre production. Based on this I thought the end product was a great example of how a director can come thru for both audiences and movie houses. Yeah it could've been better but Singer did the best he could with what he had.

I just heard this stuff, I don't have anything to back it up
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Old June 24 2013, 08:53 PM   #264
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

300 million ? That's not what BoxOfficeMojo lists, anyway.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:10 PM   #265
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Belz... wrote: View Post
300 million ? That's not what BoxOfficeMojo lists, anyway.
Like I said, i just heard all of it...I don't have anything to back it up.
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Old June 25 2013, 03:21 PM   #266
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

That probably includes money spent on previous failed incarnations of the film.
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Old June 26 2013, 07:52 AM   #267
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

The only reason why man of steel did so well at the box office is because the film has the Nolan name stamped on it

Superman while been familiar has never been a huge box office draw. WB did good for themselves when they decided to market the film as a Nolan film.

Chris Nolan has one of the biggest fan base in film history. Believe me,
if Nolan's name was not on Man of Steel , the film would have struggled at the box office.
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Old June 26 2013, 10:44 AM   #268
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

serenitytrek1 wrote: View Post
The only reason why man of steel did so well at the box office is because the film has the Nolan name stamped on it
I'm sure it helped, but the "only" reason ? Aren't you neglecting their pretty good marketing, and the popularity of the character ?

Nolan's presence didn't contribute in my seeing it, anyway.
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Old June 26 2013, 12:55 PM   #269
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

serenitytrek1 wrote: View Post
The only reason why man of steel did so well at the box office is because the film has the Nolan name stamped on it

Nope.

It might shock some folks to learn that over nine out of ten people who go to the movies have no idea who produces, directs or writes a given film. There are only one or two names that are actually well-known to the majority of the general public; Nolan isn't one of them (nor, apropos of nothing, is Whedon or Bay).

The association of certain behind-the-scenes folks with a movie is enough to get the attention of fans and aficionados, which helps to promote a movie - but it's not nearly enough to draw in the audience and make a film a big hit.

Man Of Steel is a better and more accessible movie - and a lot more people give a crap about Superman than Star Trek. It's that simple.
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Old June 26 2013, 02:16 PM   #270
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Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

Believe me. man of steel did well because it has Nolan's name on it. superman returns is clearly the better film but no one cares. I just don't know, but Nolan has this thing on fan boys and I don't mean fan boys as an insult. Any film he does will be a success because he has a mighty fan boy fan base.

If Nolan did not produce MOS, there is no way the film would have been a
success at least not with all the negative reviews it got.

Also for those who say that people don't know the director or producers, I beg to differ. WB clearly had Nolan's name in all the promotions. WB would not have done so if they were not aware of the mighty fan base Nolan has.

Another perfect example is After Earth, Sony did not promote the film as a M. Night Shyamalan film. it was simply listed as a Will Smith film. Clearly, Sony did not feel comfortable with putting Shyamalan's name on the film despite the fact that he was the director.

So yeah...Directors and Producers matter a lot when it comes to a film's success.If Nolan were to direct Trek 3, the film will make at least 800 million -1 billion at the box office. Why? because the Nolan name is a powerful name.

Also does it matter? STiD is the most critical acclaimed blockbuster of the summer. Iron man 3 is behind and Man of Steel is far far behind STiD.

Its about the quality and not the quantity.

STiD, (while a lot of fans including myself did not like the rehash of WOK) STiD, still a great film.

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