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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 28 11.16%
A 53 21.12%
A- 46 18.33%
B+ 25 9.96%
B 27 10.76%
B- 11 4.38%
C+ 13 5.18%
C 12 4.78%
C- 9 3.59%
D+ 8 3.19%
D 10 3.98%
D- 5 1.99%
F 4 1.59%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 24 2013, 03:04 AM   #811
Jax
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

^ You could argue Batman saved him once and the consequences were almost disastrous so Batman factored that into his decision to not save him/kill him. I hate the whole won't kill code anyway as it was written in a time when Heroes had to be pure, it just doesn't suit the more gritty realistic heroes that are potrayed in todays TV/Movies.

The world is a lot of grey and it will always be that way.
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Old June 24 2013, 03:10 AM   #812
The Old Mixer
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Dream wrote: View Post
FOS was only in the first two movies, not in the third or fourth.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure it was featured briefly in IV.
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Old June 24 2013, 03:11 AM   #813
Trekker4747
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I dunno, with Batman I like the "no-killing" thing because, well, he's still a human being and he has to live with the things he does. He also likely wants to stay as much inside the "law" as he can and killing someone will be crossing that line too much for him. It also creates interesting situations like when he saved a mortally wounded Joker because he didn't want to be responsible for his death, or when Batman realized it was time to retire when he reached for a gun to save himself.

One of the bigger reasons Batman doesn't kill is that he doesn't want anyone to suffer what he did when lost his parents. Sure, this doesn't apply as much with his big villains but, still, it's an interesting aspect to him.

If Batman couldn't save Ra because he was pinned or something that's one thing. But for Batman to say, "Yeah, I'm not going to save you." is a whole other thing.
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Old June 24 2013, 05:09 AM   #814
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

stj wrote: View Post
The heroism of killing is also not so obvious. In Hollywood movies it is all too commonly a childish fantasy, a way to get off on the thrill of the kill while pretending to be realistic. The new Superman's playing around with this may be nastier than the old Superman but fundamentally it's just as unserious.
The movie hardly suggests that Superman killing Zod was a "heroic" thing, only that it was necessary in that moment-- just like it often is for our own cops and soldiers.

And there was hardly anything thrilling or exciting about him doing it either. In fact it was actually pretty tragic to watch-- which was the point.

the G-man wrote: View Post
The whole set up wherein Superman "had" to kill Zod was because Snyder and Goyer wanted it in there to "reinvent" the character. So they rewrote the ending, which originally, had Zod getting sucked into the PZ, to create a situation under which he "had" to kill Zod.
And they were right that that original ending would have been deeply unsatisfying-- and way too easy for the character. Not only did the movie still need some kind of powerful conclusion, but we needed to see Superman truly tested as well.

Seeing him finally forced to kill Zod to prevent more death and destruction, and seeing the pain and agony he felt afterwards, only reinforces the idea that this is something that Superman-- more than any other superhero-- takes VERY seriously.

We needed to see that pain, because that is something only the Superman of the comics would truly feel (even if it was over the death of someone who had killed his own father!) In fact in my mind this act only makes him seem MORE like Superman to me.
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Old June 24 2013, 05:38 AM   #815
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
FOS was only in the first two movies, not in the third or fourth.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure it was featured briefly in IV.

Yes when he went to speak with the elders
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Old June 24 2013, 06:31 AM   #816
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
In any event, the Donner movie was a mediocre Hollywood attempt at an "epic" that's redeemed mainly by Reeve's performance - very shakily supported by a script that takes nothing seriously.
Reeve's performance is memorable, but for me the main thing that redeems the movie is John Williams' score, which, to be fair, doesn't take everything seriously, either, but the main title is grand.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:39 AM   #817
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Send him back to the Phantom Zone. All it would have taken is restructuring the final act so that Zod was in a position--like the rest of the Kryptonian criminals--to be banished.[/QUOTE]

FYI, from the movie it was explained that the only way to open the Zone was for them to turn on the Phantom Drive of the ship they had in hand from the Kent's farm in the proximity of the World builder, which also had a drive. The two fields created the singularity. There was no other Phantom drives left to create the singularity.
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Old June 24 2013, 06:59 AM   #818
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Just got back, gave it an A-... I liked it a lot, good performances all around, and nice eye-candy abounds. My major quibble is the sheer volume of the collateral damage in the final hour of the movie, and in Kal's seeming unconcern with it other than to save the colonel and Lois -- I know he was in the middle of a pair of fights, but the way the movie casually killed tens of thousands of Metropolis residents [at least] seemed very un-Superman-like to me. The action sf movies seem to have to one-up each other on the carnage scale these days, with Pacific Rim next on deck... Avengers' NYC battle looks like a minor kerfuffle after seeing this one.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:15 AM   #819
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post

Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.
Don't be willfully dense just for a laugh. You know what I meant.
Of course I knew what you meant, that doesn't make your original statement any less silly. Hell, we could say that about EVERY movie out there. "Batman didn't have to kill Ras, with some minor script changes he wouldn't have been on the train that was set to crash."
BUT Bruce didn't come out and tie him to the train himself, did he? He also specifically said that he didn't have to save him...IS THAT the same as snapping someones neck?!?!?

Jax wrote: View Post
I'm glad I don't have to be around you in any dark alleys.
I have little problem with genocidal maniacs losing their ability to draw breathe, nice to know you would prefer their killing spree to contine though

The world thanks you.

Sometimes being the Hero means you have to do something that is against your morality. Superman made the choice to kill and live with that guilt for the rest of his life in the same way Batman refused to save Ra's in Begins because some EVIL cannot be reasoned with.
What a sad life you must have when you must ignore GOD's number one commandment..On your definition on hero????
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Old June 24 2013, 07:24 AM   #820
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Captain Mike wrote: View Post
What a sad life you must have when you must ignore GOD's number one commandment..On your definition on hero????
Actually I'm pretty sure that was the fifth or sixth commandment (apparently commanding that humans worship no one other gods but Him was more important).
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Old June 24 2013, 07:31 AM   #821
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The writers made a choice to have Superman kill Zod to have a impactful, shocking, moment in the movie. They didn't write themselves in a corner they wrote themselves exactly where they wanted to go. And, for me, it worked. Again, Superman showed pain and remorse over doing it. It didn't come easy to him and that he didn't "simply kill Zod earlier" shows it was his absolute very last choice and not a decision that came to him quickly and easily. (See: Him risking exposing himself to a bus-full of children as opposed to letting them die to protect his identity.)

I think the killing of Zod worked well as far as showing us that Superman was basically outgunned at every turn, and the one moment he got the upper hand, he had to take the opportunity to eliminate Zod because it was the only way he could guarantee that there would be no more deaths (He didn't know if he'd get another chance to subdue him and he might get killed trying)

What I didn't like was how much of a one dimensional character Zod was. The movie tried to explain it as being "programming" in his brain. I guess I can accept that, but it's still unsettling.

I think there's a great movie to be made with a better edit. I would join all the Smallville stuff together into a linear, coherent 30-40 mins at the beginning. I would also extend the scenes where Clark is just moving from job to job making a living while hiding his true nature. If there's deleted footage there, I would add it. There needed to be a solid 1hr at the beginning building up who Clark is, so that when he decided to become Superman, we can feel how he got there (the movie just gave up a connect the dots "he became Superman because he was supposed to". I wanted to see him have an actual choice, and choose good because of the way he was raised).

Then the 1.2hr have a more coherent effort by the military to treat Superman as an enemy at first, but then clearly show that they realize Superman is fighting on their side. I would have loved to see some Michael Bay style military power being thrown against Zod and his minions.

We know that just the military on their own would have been useless. But it would have been cool if, the efforts of humanity's military powers would have distracted Zod's army just enough to give Superman a fighting chance to beat him without Deux Ex Machina "quantum engine triggered black holes".

I guess to recap, my biggest complaints about the movie are:

1. Not enough build up of Clark, and who he is as a person. We are told he wants to be good, but only glimpses as to why.

2. Not enough military involvement. I got the sense that they didn't trust Superman, and then they just did a 180 and trusted him. I didn't feel there was a path to get there. It just happened because the movie said it did.

3. More minor, but still annoying, was the overblown fight scenes. If I can't see what the heck is going on, I might as well be watching a screensaver. Copious amounts of FX doesn't make up for confusing cacophony.


I hope an extended release come out with deleted scenes. I can't wait to put together my own version. The ingredients are all there to bring this movie from a C to an A, at least for me.

What a sad life you must have when you must ignore GOD's number one commandment..On your definition on hero????
I don't understand what the big deal is about this. Zod is a crazy son of a bitch that is killing humans left and right with no remorse and will continue to do so. There is no way to contain him on Earth (at least not yet in this movie save for the trigger of the Phantom Zone again which he managed to dodge). So the Phantom Zone being the only way to contain him, and having that opportunity gone, Superman couldn't take the chance to let him live. His death was necessary to save billions of lives. I don't see that as a bad thing.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:42 AM   #822
Captain Mike
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

davejames wrote: View Post
Captain Mike wrote: View Post
What a sad life you must have when you must ignore GOD's number one commandment..On your definition on hero????
Actually I'm pretty sure that was the fifth or sixth commandment (apparently commanding that humans worship no one other gods but Him was more important).
It is actually around seven, but who cares in these ovie making days?
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Old June 24 2013, 07:56 AM   #823
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Dream wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
The mad dog Zod is the opposite. Somehow seeing no difference is pretty uncritical. If being whipped was going to unhinge Zod, you'd think he'd have gone nuts on Krypton. The Kryptonian Zod probably would have started planning another Phantom Zone escape. Hence the creation of the new personality. Well, if they insist, but no one has a right to insist that the audience must let the makers have it both ways.
I liked Zod's motivation in Superman II much much more, which was to rule. Simple but effective. Also Terence Stamp was awesome.

Zod was just Hitler in MOS. Meh.
I found Zod's motivation and the Phantom zone release to be superior and much more logical in mos.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:00 AM   #824
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Harvey wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
In any event, the Donner movie was a mediocre Hollywood attempt at an "epic" that's redeemed mainly by Reeve's performance - very shakily supported by a script that takes nothing seriously.
Reeve's performance is memorable, but for me the main thing that redeems the movie is John Williams' score, which, to be fair, doesn't take everything seriously, either, but the main title is grand.
I think you guys are being way too hard on the Donner films. Putting aside that it was the late 70s/early 80s, those movies still do a great job making a character as difficult as Superman actually WORK on the big screen. And making the superhero world more credible and believable than it had ever been before-- especially compared to the cartoons and TV series that came before.

And yeah there might have been some campy humor, but the movies themselves never become a complete joke or farce on the level of the 1960s Batman or anything. In fact even while delivering jokes, you still clearly sense the underlying menace in Hackman's Lex (whether in the brilliant kryptonite scene or in his desire to sink and destroy the western seaboard). And despite his silly costume and outdated effects, Stamp's Zod still feels like a huge threat in that movie as well.

As much as I love the serious tone of MOS, I think the approach of the Donner films works just as damn well. You just have to be willing to look past the humor and dated effects.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:13 AM   #825
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Really tired of this argument that Jonathan was somehow trying to teach Clark "not to save people" or "not be a hero".

OBVIOUSLY he wanted Clark to use his powers for good, and said so many times. He was just worried and conflicted over what might happen when the government and world found out the truth, and about how they would react. Which is probably what every parent would worry about in his position.

So enough of that stupid argument.
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