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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old March 28 2013, 01:09 AM   #76
Tiberius
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Re: Cause and Effect

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
The Enterprise D is about 640 meters long, if I recall.
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Old March 28 2013, 04:16 AM   #77
Trekker4747
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Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Photoman15 wrote: View Post
Second, in space the ship weighs nothing.
I call troll.

We went over this with you in August last year.

LINK
It's amazing how often people confuse the "things weigh nothing in space" thing. Sure, in space and not in a gravitational body I would "weigh nothing" and a 2 year old could, theoretically, pick me up. Say if we were on a very light object with no meaningful gravity (like an asteroid.) But weight and mass are different things.

Just because things don't weigh anything (or much) in space doesn't mean they're easy to move. Think of it this way, if things "weigh nothing in space" that means that when Neil Armstrong went to the moon he could've picked it up and chucked it out of orbit like he was Superman. The notion of being destroyed by an asteroid would be meaningless because all we would need to do it just send something small to the asteroid to push it out of the way. I mean, it weighs nothing, right? Nope. It doesn't work that way.

Mass and weight are not the same thing.

The Enterprise is still a huge chunk of metal that on earth would weigh millions of tons. You're not going to move it out of the way in a quick manner with few second long blast of a small (comparatively) room full of air. The air in that space to move the Enterprise would have to weigh more than the ship, a LOT more, to move it so quickly. In "reality" that blast of air would just make the ship infinitesimally faster in its movement in that direction.

If things "weighing nothing" in space was enough to make them easy to move we would have figured out the whole "going the speed of light" thing and "sending ships to other planets" thing a long-assed time ago. But, in reality, the problem is to go a speed you have to move mass, to move mass you need fuel, fuel weighs something (adds mass) so it means you need more fuel to move it ad infinitum.
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Old March 28 2013, 04:43 AM   #78
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
The Enterprise D is about 640 meters long, if I recall.
640 meters / 6 hours = 2.96 cm/second. Quite noticeable to the human eye.

As for the solution to Cause and Effect, I might explain that as, relative distances are distorted in the show. If one ship is traveling at different multiples of the speed of light they can still see each other slowly getting closer on the viewscreen. In Cause and Effect they didn't really need that much thrust to move clear of the ship. Let's say the ship needed to move 100m in 5s. The ship then needed to accelerate at 8 m/s^2.
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Old March 28 2013, 05:08 AM   #79
Pavonis
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Re: Cause and Effect

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
640 meters / 6 hours = 2.96 cm/second. Quite noticeable to the human eye.
That's only if the rate of expansion is constant, and it's probably not.
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Old March 29 2013, 04:56 PM   #80
FFunctionalData
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Re: Cause and Effect

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
FFunctionalData wrote: View Post
Loved this ep.

I just do not understand how the doctor was able to hear voices. It would have made more sense if it happened to Troi.
The voices were a physical manifestation -they were actually there, not in Crusher's head. Geordi says sensors had picked something up and other crewmen reported a problem too. It was initially assumed to be a problem in the Com System. Crusher's room just happened to be in the right place and time for her to hear -and later record- the voices.
Geordi also has an effect he calls blurry after images in his visor. It's what initially made him dizzy. It's made out that they are both some kind of echos from previous loops

time travel ep hurt my head.

thank you for clearing it up though.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:25 PM   #81
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Re: Cause and Effect

This is one of my favourite episodes of TNG and definitely a highlight of the 5th season for me. It's also a great showcase for what's probably my favourite Worf makeup in the series.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:29 PM   #82
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Re: Cause and Effect

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
It's amazing how often people confuse the "things weigh nothing in space" thing. Sure, in space and not in a gravitational body I would "weigh nothing" and a 2 year old could, theoretically, pick me up. Say if we were on a very light object with no meaningful gravity (like an asteroid.) But weight and mass are different things.
If you want to puncture that misconception,just remind them that the Earth is in space, too. Does it weigh nothing?
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Old March 29 2013, 08:55 PM   #83
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Re: Cause and Effect

It's like saying that Neil Armstrong could've picked up the moon and tossed it out of orbit if he wanted to. I mean, it "weighs nothing", right?
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Old March 29 2013, 10:07 PM   #84
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Re: Cause and Effect

This is also one of my favourite episodes. It has some great moments and a great opener.
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Old March 29 2013, 11:26 PM   #85
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Re: Cause and Effect

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...for most of the time the E-D is undergoing a cycle, the Bozeman is leisurely cruising in the 23rd century and not repeating anything. The Bozeman only participates in the cycle after arriving in the 24th century!
How do you know?
Because the collision between the two ships is the only thing that causes the loop. We know this from the final scene - the Bozeman comes through, does NOT hit the Enterprise, and thus the cycle is broken.
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Old March 30 2013, 11:35 AM   #86
T'Girl
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Re: Cause and Effect

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Of course, if the ship is one kilometer long and the breach would envelop the ship in six hours, the breach should have been noticeably moving.
If it were moving at a steady rate of speed, for the explosive force to reach the bow in six hours, the "cloud" should have been expanding at just under 20 millimetres a second (their prospective) or about 1.2 metres per minute. they were in engineering for a couple of minutes.

But that assumes a steady expansion. You need to take into consideration that there was (at that time) a relatively small opening into the warp core. The main explosion wouldn't occur until the body of the warp core housing was torn apart. What we (and they) were likely seeing was a initial pinhole venting plasma.

The Enterprise D is 642 metres long.
The warp core is approximately two-thirds back from the bow.
Or approximately 427,572 millimetres.
There are 21,600 seconds in 6 hours.
19.795 millimetres per second expansion.


Photoman15 wrote: View Post
Second, in space the ship weighs nothing.
You are completely correct. While a ship in space has mass, a ship in space has no weight.

Again, you are correct.

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
It's like saying that Neil Armstrong could've picked up the moon and tossed it out of orbit if he wanted to. I mean, it "weighs nothing", right?
It's the Moon's mass being attracted (mutual attraction) to the Earth's mass that holds it in orbit. The late Neil Armstrong (despite his last name) would lack the strength to move that much mass.


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Old June 24 2013, 04:04 AM   #87
Gaith
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Re: Cause and Effect

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Like putting too much air in a balloon!
Great reference, great ep.

Though I did wonder why when, at the end, Worf identified the other ship as the Bozeman, the D's computer didn't pipe up with an alert saying "holy shit, guys, we've been missing that ship for 90 years!". I mean, I'm assuming Word didn't read the hull markings without the computer's help. And I'm kinda surprised Data doesn't keep a mental list of all mysteriously missing UFP ships, either.

Don't mind the nitpicks, though.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:16 AM   #88
Tosk
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Re: Cause and Effect

Gaith wrote: View Post
Though I did wonder why when, at the end, Worf identified the other ship as the Bozeman, the D's computer didn't pipe up with an alert saying "holy shit, guys, we've been missing that ship for 90 years!".
TV dramatics. Just like in Yesterday's Enterprise, when Tasha reads off the ID on the other ship. "NCC 1701-C, U.S.S. ...Enterprise." But Picard doesn't act stunned until she gets to the Enterprise part.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:48 AM   #89
jimbotron
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Re: Cause and Effect

Tosk wrote: View Post
TV dramatics. Just like in Yesterday's Enterprise, when Tasha reads off the ID on the other ship. "NCC 1701-C, U.S.S. ...Enterprise." But Picard doesn't act stunned until she gets to the Enterprise part.
Actually his stunned reaction (Riker's too) is after Yar reads off "1701-C". He turns to her, and then after she reads "Enterprise", he looks back toward the viewscreen.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:57 AM   #90
Tosk
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Re: Cause and Effect

You're right, sorry...it's the music that acts like "Enterprise" is the real kicker. It messed with my memory of the characters reacting.
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