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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 24 2013, 02:32 AM   #601
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

Getting back to Kasidy, the writers just didn't seem capable of conceiving of her as a multidimensional character who might be in love with Ben but also have a dedication to the Maquis. They cheapened her character and reduced her to just an extension of Ben. But as with Quark, they also had a habit of dropping the ball on a lot of characters on the show.
I'll have to say I disagree on this one. She was more than just an extension of Ben and he was more than just an extension of her. Wasn't her smuggling cargo to the Maquis a demonstration of her dedication to them--to the point where she even went to prison for it? That doesn't sound like someone that's just following Ben around as he leads her by the nose to me, but that's just me.

And I don't think they dropped the ball with Quark at all. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many shows sci-fi and non-sci-fi that handle recurring, minor, and secondary characters as well as DS9 did. They are out there, but they are as plentiful as needles in haystacks, imo.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:35 AM   #602
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Wasn't her smuggling cargo to the Maquis a demonstration of her dedication to them--to the point where she even went to prison for it?
No. She did that for Ben.

And I don't think they dropped the ball with Quark at all. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many shows sci-fi and non-sci-fi that handle recurring, minor, and secondary characters as well as DS9 did.
Quark was neither recurring, minor, nor secondary. Armin Shimerman's name was on the opening credits for Pete's sake. Additionally, he got lots of screen time, and plenty of episodes revolved around him.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:38 AM   #603
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Wasn't her smuggling cargo to the Maquis a demonstration of her dedication to them--to the point where she even went to prison for it?
No. She did that for Ben.
I'll have to watch it again, but let's just say that's the case. She still, as a captain, had to make a choice. And it was within her power to make that choice.

Quark was neither recurring, minor, nor secondary. Armin Shimerman's name was on the opening credits for Pete's sake. Additionally, he got lots of screen time, and plenty of episodes revolved around him.
I didn't say that he was. Yes, he got lots of screen time and lots of episodes dedicated to him where he was very fully fleshed out. That's hardly "dropping the ball," as you say...
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Old June 24 2013, 02:54 AM   #604
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.

I just have a bit of a problem with only 'alien' women being capable of command.
Obviously the producers of Star Trek were doubling by having women and aliens being represented in one position.

And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.

I'm not really saying DS9 or VOY were sexist. That would be ridiculous. Just that there were not many human females who even temporarily commanded a Starship/Space Station.

Just as in original BSG/Star Wars only men could be pilots

Yes and Keiko was a teacher but I'm talking about having women in charge (not just of O'Brien) just like Kira was at times. Why couldn't they have a human woman in charge of a ship ? Aren't human women capable of it? I think even women are allowed to be 'captains' nowadays. Why not in the 23rd/24th century?

Even some of the 'alien' women who were in command positions were not Starfleet (Kira and T'Pol) or once a man (Dax)
I'm sounding like Janice Lester now.
I'm sorry, but this entire post is REALLY stretching to try and make an ill-formed point. What is it about this subject that people have to engage in such hyperbole, obfuscation, falsehoods, and poorly thought out premises to support their point of view?
I'm prepared to admit to any proven falsehoods in my posts.

It would be a step forward IMO if Uhura or Darwin (if she is human) or whoever takes command of the Enterprise for even 5 minutes.
This may be a non-issue for most people because they equate T'Pol, Kira, Ro, Dax to be the equivalent of human women. On the whole I agree but it irks me just a little bit that there's only one human woman 'commander' example (practically) in the whole of Star Trek. nuBSG had plenty of women pilots (humans) and plenty of women enemies (aliens)
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Old June 24 2013, 03:17 AM   #605
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Wasn't her smuggling cargo to the Maquis a demonstration of her dedication to them--to the point where she even went to prison for it?
No. She did that for Ben.
I'll have to watch it again, but let's just say that's the case. She still, as a captain, had to make a choice. And it was within her power to make that choice.
Kassidy was more of a sympathizer than an actual Maquis member, and her decision to turn herself in to face justice was entirely a factor of her not wanting to have to be a wanted fugitive and never being able to see Sisko again. Ultimately she's just a freighter pilot; she's the Malcolm Reynolds/Faye Valentine sort who can sneak onto the station every once in a while, pop out of Ben's closet at 2AM for a booty call and then slink away before the security teams get there. Apart from not having the stomach for any of that, there's the little fact that, apart from the criminally insane, Federation prisons are actually pretty damn comfortable.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:27 AM   #606
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
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CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post

No. She did that for Ben.
I'll have to watch it again, but let's just say that's the case. She still, as a captain, had to make a choice. And it was within her power to make that choice.
Kassidy was more of a sympathizer than an actual Maquis member, and her decision to turn herself in to face justice was entirely a factor of her not wanting to have to be a wanted fugitive and never being able to see Sisko again. Ultimately she's just a freighter pilot; she's the Malcolm Reynolds/Faye Valentine sort who can sneak onto the station every once in a while, pop out of Ben's closet at 2AM for a booty call and then slink away before the security teams get there. Apart from not having the stomach for any of that, there's the little fact that, apart from the criminally insane, Federation prisons are actually pretty damn comfortable.
Just a freighter pilot? It's like you are making an effort to reduce her somehow. She was a freighter captain, and unlike Malcolm (I don't know about Valentine) she was in charge of the ship she was on. So, it's not the same at all.

Then you go into using terms like "booty call." I think you are being trashy and demeaning in the way that you are choosing to describe their relationship. You act like she and Ben were teenagers trying not to get caught by their parents or something. They were two adults. And as if security was going to come knocking on the the door of the Captain and Commander of the Station to ask about his off-duty and private relationship behind closed doors. Lol. The head of security was too busy trying to get Kira to have an attitude over the captain having a girlfriend and then wife.

I don't know what kind of shows you like to watch, but adults do have relationships with each other that are loving, long-term, and far more than just "booty calls." Even how they met goes against that. Sisko's son liked her, meaning that he spent time with the woman and thought she would be a good match for his lonely father (he even said as much). I'm sorry if you cannot see that, but it's true for Kasidy and Ben, and it's true that people can and do fall in love, frankly, in general.
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Old June 24 2013, 04:47 AM   #607
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.
The Bechdel Test makes no specification whatsoever that a character must be a human. So Nerys, Jadzia, Ezri, etc count.
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Old June 24 2013, 05:31 AM   #608
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
Quark was neither recurring, minor, nor secondary. Armin Shimerman's name was on the opening credits for Pete's sake. Additionally, he got lots of screen time, and plenty of episodes revolved around him.
I didn't say that he was. Yes, he got lots of screen time and lots of episodes dedicated to him where he was very fully fleshed out. That's hardly "dropping the ball," as you say...
The problem was that turning away from multidimensional characterizations and having all the protagonists adopt similar "good guy" values is not indicative of an "edgy" show. This is drifting even further off-topic, so I'll just refer you to here for what Shimerman has said about Quark becoming "domesticated" over the course of the show. Domesticating Quark, making him as adorable as he was by the end, was what I meant by dropping the ball.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:31 AM   #609
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Does it count as "gender balance" when slightly more than a third of the female characters are exemplars of gender stereotypes?
Compared to what else we have currently I'd so, "Only a third? That's pretty good!"
Compared to Star Trek, it isn't.

Because when it comes to gender stereotypes, "zero" is still preferable to "one third."
Star Trek has plenty of its own gender stereotypes! Plus Defiance is in a civilian setting. Plus Trek has half as many women. Defiance does exactly what it should. It has a wide mix of characters.

Think about what you are saying. Do you want only homosexual relationships and no heroic, masculine males? It's the mixture that's more important.
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Old June 24 2013, 09:01 AM   #610
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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Which is why I mentioned the difference between gender and GENDER ROLES. You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.
For the record, I myself as a male have no problem with a female chief engineer, and wouldn't have minded one being appointed in Scotty's place, but that would have entailed putting a new character in a major role in the movie that would have resulted in less screen time for one of the big seven-a great thing if this was a TV show, but fatal for a movie (and also resulting in the hue and cry about the main characters not getting enough screen time.) Until somebody decides to bring Star Trek back to TV, this is how it's likely to be, unless you want the movie to be three hours long.

It offends me when a qualified character gets bumped to make way for one of the big 3
Then you should probably stop watching Star Trek, because that particular practice has been the basic premise of almost every Trek episode in history. "We have a crew of 400 people on board, most of whom are qualified specialists in their field with years of experience, so of course the Captain, the first officer, the ship's doctor and two random security officers will be part of every away team."[/QUOTE]

Seconded, with a repeat of what I said above about each of the main seven needing to get something to do in the movie.
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Old June 24 2013, 09:08 AM   #611
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which is why I mentioned the difference between gender and GENDER ROLES. You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.
For the record, I myself as a male have no problem with a female chief engineer, and wouldn't have minded one being appointed in Scotty's place, but that would have entailed putting a new character in a major role in the movie that would have resulted in less screen time for one of the big seven-a great thing if this was a TV show, but fatal for a movie (and also resulting in the hue and cry about the main characters not getting enough screen time.) Until somebody decides to bring Star Trek back to TV, this is how it's likely to be, unless you want the movie to be three hours long.

It offends me when a qualified character gets bumped to make way for one of the big 3

Then you should probably stop watching Star Trek, because that particular practice has been the basic premise of almost every Trek episode in history. "We have a crew of 400 people on board, most of whom are qualified specialists in their field with years of experience, so of course the Captain, the first officer, the ship's doctor and two random security officers will be part of every away team."
Seconded, with a repeat of what I said above about each of the main seven needing to get something to do in the movie.
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Old June 24 2013, 09:34 AM   #612
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote:
The problem was that turning away from multidimensional characterizations and having all the protagonists adopt similar "good guy" values is not indicative of an "edgy" show. This is drifting even further off-topic, so I'll just refer you to here for what Shimerman has said about Quark becoming "domesticated" over the course of the show. Domesticating Quark, making him as adorable as he was by the end, was what I meant by dropping the ball.
Well, part of being a protagonist is being the “good guy.” I think they all dealt with that in different ways. And besides, what constitutes “good” was challenged in a number of ways throughout the series with a variety of races, including humans in episodes like In The Pale Moonlight. That’s “edgy” enough to me.

But getting on to Quark, I have to disagree with Mr. Shimerman to a good extent. I think the character changed more (or at least just as much) because of how he was challenged by Ferengi that weren’t misogynistic and what you might consider “bad guys.” His mother and brother had an effect, I think, and the former didn’t spend time with “humans” at all. My favorite challenge to the traditional Ferengi misogyny Quark had been trained to have was the episode that had the ambitious female Ferengi posing as a male working for Quark. He got to see how excellent she was, and by the time he found out that she was female, it challenged his thinking, and in particular, what he had been taught to believe about females. And for him, that clearly was a dilemma.

He’s a liar, a schemer, and even a cheat, but he’s also able to recognize a good investment when he sees one, and a great entrepreneur, regardless of gender. He had grown to like her and admire what she brought to the table by the time he found out that she was a woman, and by then he couldn’t deny the proof that she was just as capable as any man. Deep down inside, I think Quark was always a “good guy” who knew better than to show it very much. Had he not been that way, then I don’t think he would have secretly given her the startup money to live out her dream as a profitable businesswoman in the Gamma quadrant. I don’t think Humans and Cardassians caused him to make that choice; the Ferengi woman did, and it changed him a bit… for the better.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:23 PM   #613
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Star Trek will never move into gender equality as long as it sticks with the original crew. The only way to improve it is to go with a new crew, not go with the classic crew and try their best to give each character a moment in the spotlight, because than they're just spotlight characters.
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Old June 24 2013, 03:30 PM   #614
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Star Trek will never move into gender equality as long as it sticks with the original crew. The only way to improve it is to go with a new crew, not go with the classic crew and try their best to give each character a moment in the spotlight, because than they're just spotlight characters.
So its just not possible for Abrams to produce a gender equality Star Trek movie because he's got Kirk, Spock et. al.
So its not Abrams fault at all, he just stuck with the wrong people (spotlight characters).

What is gender equality anyway, do you have to have 50% women, 50% of lines given to women (the Shatner equation) or is it possible for there to be gender equality without a strict quota?
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Old June 24 2013, 04:41 PM   #615
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

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The whole idea of Ilia with her pheromones and her ability to ensnare men with her sexuality in a teenage boy's dream. You can't probably get more sexist than this particular fantasy of GR's .
IMO its only Kambatta's sweet-portrayal of llia that counteracts Ilia's sex goddess role.
IMHO, Deltans represent the swinging 60s free-love mindset. However, while that may have worked on Delta IV, GR was smart enough to realize that it would be disruptive to bring that attitude aboard a Starship, which is why Deltans had to swear celibacy. Unfortunately he had a blind-spot about romance in the workplace when it came to his own life.
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