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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 28 11.16%
A 53 21.12%
A- 46 18.33%
B+ 25 9.96%
B 27 10.76%
B- 11 4.38%
C+ 13 5.18%
C 12 4.78%
C- 9 3.59%
D+ 8 3.19%
D 10 3.98%
D- 5 1.99%
F 4 1.59%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 24 2013, 01:38 AM   #796
the G-man
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Jax wrote: View Post
TemporalFlux, Please explain to me how you would of stopped a genocidal GOD like villian like Zod from killing that family and prevent his warpath to wipe out Humanity that didn't involve killing him?
Send him back to the Phantom Zone. All it would have taken is restructuring the final act so that Zod was in a position--like the rest of the Kryptonian criminals--to be banished.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:39 AM   #797
Trekker4747
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

the G-man wrote: View Post
Jax wrote: View Post
TemporalFlux, Please explain to me how you would of stopped a genocidal GOD like villian like Zod from killing that family and prevent his warpath to wipe out Humanity that didn't involve killing him?
Send him back to the Phantom Zone. All it would have taken is restructuring the final act so that Zod was in a position--like the rest of the Kryptonian criminals--to be banished.
Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:47 AM   #798
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:48 AM   #799
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The movie's thesis that humanity is so fearful that Jonathan Kent would sacrifice his life to keep Clark's secret is a fairly grim one. It really isn't believable when someone insists there's nothing intrinsically darker about this version. And this is especially true if somehow the argument that the earlier Superman was too comic or unserious is regarded as somehow acceptable. If someone can't accept the thesis (admittedly the clumsy writing of Kent's martyrdom doesn't help,) then they can't. The notion that they are not allowed to reject the thesis is wrong.

If you can take the movie on its own terms (I did myself,) it was a much more enjoyable experience. But it should be obvious to anyone that if you couldn't, it would detract from the entertainment. How this is offensive to anyone but stockholders is anybody's guess.

What isn't so obvious is how someone can simultaneously hold two contradictory opinions. The movie benefited tremendously from the plot making a certain kind of sense, in which the villain actually had a reasonable motive and practical method. The mad dog Zod is the opposite. Somehow seeing no difference is pretty uncritical. If being whipped was going to unhinge Zod, you'd think he'd have gone nuts on Krypton. The Kryptonian Zod probably would have started planning another Phantom Zone escape. Hence the creation of the new personality. Well, if they insist, but no one has a right to insist that the audience must let the makers have it both ways.

The heroism of killing is also not so obvious. In Hollywood movies it is all too commonly a childish fantasy, a way to get off on the thrill of the kill while pretending to be realistic. The new Superman's playing around with this may be nastier than the old Superman but fundamentally it's just as unserious.

PS I'd post a link if I remembered where I saw it, but I ran across an estimate of 150 million plus for marketing. It is very likely that the movie will need to gross in excess of a billion for a quick official profit. Given creative accounting and later income it is of course already a guaranteed moneymaker. But true stockholders' greed knows no bounds. It is possible they will be disappointed at waiting for the gravy.

PPS Cross-posting is confusing. It does seem a few people seem to think that Zod really did of his own volition escape the Phantom Zone. It was of course Goyer and Nolan who (clumsily) wrote him as somehow escaping, just to set up the kill. A movie is what it is, and the script said that Zod escaped and conveniently for the bloodthirsty went mad. But this doesn't fit the rest of the script. It is rather uncritical not to notice a problem. It is one thing to accept it regardless but to insist others must as well? Extraordinary.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:49 AM   #800
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.

Priceless.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:53 AM   #801
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

It's really one of those Silver-Age powers we rarely see anymore. It's a shame, really.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:56 AM   #802
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

stj wrote: View Post
The mad dog Zod is the opposite. Somehow seeing no difference is pretty uncritical. If being whipped was going to unhinge Zod, you'd think he'd have gone nuts on Krypton. The Kryptonian Zod probably would have started planning another Phantom Zone escape. Hence the creation of the new personality. Well, if they insist, but no one has a right to insist that the audience must let the makers have it both ways.
I liked Zod's motivation in Superman II much much more, which was to rule. Simple but effective. Also Terence Stamp was awesome.

Zod was just Hitler in MOS. Meh.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:58 AM   #803
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post
Jax wrote: View Post
TemporalFlux, Please explain to me how you would of stopped a genocidal GOD like villian like Zod from killing that family and prevent his warpath to wipe out Humanity that didn't involve killing him?
Send him back to the Phantom Zone. All it would have taken is restructuring the final act so that Zod was in a position--like the rest of the Kryptonian criminals--to be banished.
Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.
Don't be willfully dense just for a laugh. You know what I meant.

The whole set up wherein Superman "had" to kill Zod was because Snyder and Goyer wanted it in there to "reinvent" the character. So they rewrote the ending, which originally, had Zod getting sucked into the PZ, to create a situation under which he "had" to kill Zod.

It was a tacked on coda, not something that flowed naturally from the rest of the script (insofar as, noted above, it wasn't in the original script). It didn't have to be there. The writers could have found ways around it if they hadn't been pushing for it in the first place.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:05 AM   #804
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

because Snyder and Goyer wanted it in there to reinvent the character
How dare those bastards try to reinvent Superman in this new reboot origin story I demand the same thing forever
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Old June 24 2013, 02:06 AM   #805
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

the G-man wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
the G-man wrote: View Post

Send him back to the Phantom Zone. All it would have taken is restructuring the final act so that Zod was in a position--like the rest of the Kryptonian criminals--to be banished.
Yes, of course, I forgot about Superman's ability to re-write the script of the movie he's in.
Don't be willfully dense just for a laugh. You know what I meant.
Of course I knew what you meant, that doesn't make your original statement any less silly. Hell, we could say that about EVERY movie out there. "Batman didn't have to kill Ras, with some minor script changes he wouldn't have been on the train that was set to crash."

"Luke didn't have to have his hand chopped off. With some changes to the script and blocking his hand could have been a different position when Vader swung his saber."

"Part of New York didn't have to be damaged with the world threatened. With some minor changes to the script Loki never would have gotten his hands on Tesseract at all!"

"Frodo and company didn't have to walk all the way to Mordor to destroy the ring, with some changes to the script and original story the rings could have not existed to pose any problem at all!"

The point is that Zod DID escape getting into the Phantom Zone and then Superman had to do *something* with him and deal with him in some manner when he threatened innocents.

"It could have ended differently if it was written differently" isn't a solution. The writers wanted this to happen. The POINT is in how characters deal with it and the repercussions it has. Here, Superman snaps Zod's neck, breaks down, yells, and weeps. It was emotionally hard for him to do and for all we know it'll lead to him going into a "I will never kill again," mentality. In the situation Superman was in he had little other choice.

"It could have been different it was written differently" isn't a solution. It's meta-solving solutions. Stay inside the fourth-wall.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:14 AM   #806
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Jax wrote: View Post
TemporalFlux, Please explain to me how you would of stopped a genocidal GOD like villian like Zod from killing that family and prevent his warpath to wipe out Humanity that didn't involve killing him?
Well, at least we know you would have snapped his neck. I'm glad I don't have to be around you in any dark alleys.

The solution is to not write yourself in that corner in the first place. The sequence where the phantom zone is opened as a singularity was imagery and ideas taken from the Geoff Johns / Richard Donner Action Comics Annual #11 that concluded the Last Son story arc. Zod wasn't killed there; he was sucked back into the zone just like the rest.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comi....22Last_Son.22

Snyder and Goyer borrowed the ideas and images from the comics, but they adjusted the story to make sure Superman killed somebody. Again, I wonder if it's part of a grand plan to tell the story of "Exiled" and "The Eradicator" over the course a trilogy. We'll see.

However, I can't help how I felt when I saw Superman do it. I realize you don't care and even seem to like it; but that's you and not me.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:21 AM   #807
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

That's not writing yourself in a corner. Writing yourself in corner means you have to pull out a McGuffin or a deus ex machnia to come up with an ending that doesn't fit. (See: Any movie made where destroying the mothership causes all of the secondary ships/attackers to drop dead.)

The writers made a choice to have Superman kill Zod to have a impactful, shocking, moment in the movie. They didn't write themselves in a corner they wrote themselves exactly where they wanted to go. And, for me, it worked. Again, Superman showed pain and remorse over doing it. It didn't come easy to him and that he didn't "simply kill Zod earlier" shows it was his absolute very last choice and not a decision that came to him quickly and easily. (See: Him risking exposing himself to a bus-full of children as opposed to letting them die to protect his identity.)

Where it goes from here, we'll see. But killing is hardly completely out of Superman's character and he'll bring himself to that point if he absolutely has to go there. Again, as we see.

Again, what else were his options with access to the Phantom Zone gone and Zod is just as powerful as he is and is promising to kill humans to his dying breath? Again, this was done much better than Batman shrugging off killing Ras by simply saying "Well, I didn't kill him. I just didn't save him."

I say this as a big Superman fan, I've got no problem with how the Zod thing was handled.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:25 AM   #808
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I think that scene would been more effective if Superman actually had a choice. He never did. The writing forced Superman to kill Zod.

There should have been a plan A like Superman getting Zod on the scout ship to depower and capture him, but Superman was forced at the last moment to kill Zod when he threaten the family. Instead the entire battle was just the two of them punching each other.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:51 AM   #809
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

I'm glad I don't have to be around you in any dark alleys.
I have little problem with genocidal maniacs losing their ability to draw breathe, nice to know you would prefer their killing spree to contine though

The world thanks you.

Sometimes being the Hero means you have to do something that is against your morality. Superman made the choice to kill and live with that guilt for the rest of his life in the same way Batman refused to save Ra's in Begins because some EVIL cannot be reasoned with.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:59 AM   #810
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

But see, Batman's killing (excuse me, refusal to save) is illogical because Ra could've been saved and then taken into custody by Gotham PD/the authorities who don't take kindly to attempts to kill/poison a city full of people. Batman also has a bit more a firmly established "code" against killing and Batman HAD a choice, Superman really didn't.

If Superman didn't act Zod would have killed the people and continued his rampage. If Batman acted Ra would've be imprisoned. Batman also came across as rather indifferent to the idea of killing (excuse me "not saving") Ra.
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