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Old June 23 2013, 06:15 PM   #586
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

The handling of Kasidy Yates was further evidence that DS9 edginess was only in the minds of its fans. A truly edgy DS9 would never have had her surrender to Ben, much less come back for a group hug and marriage to him. Better would have been for her to persist as some sort of semi-antagonist.

However, while part of it, I don't think the bad handling of Yates was necessarily entirely a gender issue. As she was originally set up, she could have been a fine character. The problem was more the tendency to have all the protagonists on the show follow some road to Damascus and come around to the same moral perspective as Starfleet and the Federation. It might have been reasonable in the case of someone like Kira. However, Quark, especially, suffered from the blandness of infecting everybody with Federation sensibilities. At least the writers were self-aware enough to make fun of it, with the root beer scene in The Way of the Warrior.

Getting back to Kasidy, the writers just didn't seem capable of conceiving of her as a multidimensional character who might be in love with Ben but also have a dedication to the Maquis. They cheapened her character and reduced her to just an extension of Ben. But as with Quark, they also had a habit of dropping the ball on a lot of characters on the show.
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Old June 23 2013, 06:22 PM   #587
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.

I just have a bit of a problem with only 'alien' women being capable of command.
Obviously the producers of Star Trek were doubling by having women and aliens being represented in one position.

And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.

I'm not really saying DS9 or VOY were sexist. That would be ridiculous. Just that there were not many human females who even temporarily commanded a Starship/Space Station.

Just as in original BSG/Star Wars only men could be pilots

Yes and Keiko was a teacher but I'm talking about having women in charge (not just of O'Brien) just like Kira was at times. Why couldn't they have a human woman in charge of a ship ? Aren't human women capable of it? I think even women are allowed to be 'captains' nowadays. Why not in the 23rd/24th century?

Even some of the 'alien' women who were in command positions were not Starfleet (Kira and T'Pol) or once a man (Dax)
I'm sounding like Janice Lester now.
I'm sorry, but this entire post is REALLY stretching to try and make an ill-formed point. What is it about this subject that people have to engage in such hyperbole, obfuscation, falsehoods, and poorly thought out premises to support their point of view?
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Old June 23 2013, 07:07 PM   #588
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.
:cough: ... admirals... :cough:
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Old June 23 2013, 10:37 PM   #589
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
Does it count as "gender balance" when slightly more than a third of the female characters are exemplars of gender stereotypes?
Compared to what else we have currently, I'd so, "Only a third? That's pretty good!"

I'm sure more than a third of the male characters are based on gender stereotypes too but they are stereotypes for a reason. If two thirds of the women are not gender stereotyped I'd say that's diversity.
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Old June 23 2013, 10:46 PM   #590
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

BillJ wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
Sure, but what does that matter if it isn't very good? But it's also a TV series not a two-hour movie, it is new and not based on previous material and it didn't have seven core characters it had to service
Well, a lot of people disliked Enterprise, so that show had poor gender balance AND wasn't very good. Gender balance won't make a bad story good but neither will sexism. Nonetheless, we should strive to avoid sexism where possible.

Out of interest, what aspects of the show did you find to be so objectionable? I thought it was better than Fringe (which became too convoluted for the casual viewer), Continuum (which seems to be improving but there aren't enough characters to avoid it repeating itself) and Revolution (which paid only lip service to a world without resources). Are there any new sci fi shows with which you find favour?
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Old June 23 2013, 10:59 PM   #591
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I just found Defiance dull. For me, that is the absolute worse sin a show can commit.

The last televised sci-fi that I found interesting was the Battlestar Galactica mini-series from 2003. I found I like sci-fi literature and movies far more than sci-fi TV these days.

Though there isn't much on TV these days that catch my interest.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:03 PM   #592
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Opus wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.
:cough: ... admirals... :cough:
IOW, the occasional day player. Minor - a line here, a line there, gone.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:16 PM   #593
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.
:cough: ... admirals... :cough:
IOW, the occasional day player. Minor - a line here, a line there, gone.
Actually, Nechayev was pretty cool. They initially portrayed her as an ice cold cow but after a few appearances it became clearer that actually she pretty much agreed with everything the heroes did but she was overruled by Starfleet Command and carrying out orders she didn't really agree with but with the conviction required of a flag officer.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:03 AM   #594
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Well, there's Admiral Satie....
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Old June 24 2013, 12:37 AM   #595
Opus
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.
:cough: ... admirals... :cough:
IOW, the occasional day player. Minor - a line here, a line there, gone.
The actresses, yes. But most admirals were portrayed by women. And a few were reoccurring roles.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:37 AM   #596
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
However, doyou accept that it is a franchise that has more gender balance?
Does it count as "gender balance" when slightly more than a third of the female characters are exemplars of gender stereotypes?
Compared to what else we have currently I'd so, "Only a third? That's pretty good!"
Compared to Star Trek, it isn't.

Because when it comes to gender stereotypes, "zero" is still preferable to "one third."

I'm sure more than a third of the male characters are based on gender stereotypes too
Which isn't really helping your case all that much.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:46 AM   #597
CorporalClegg
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Well, there's Admiral Satie....
I'd rather Admiral Staite.

And so would Possum.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:49 AM   #598
robau
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I want more short people in Star Trek. There's a clear height bias in all Trek shows and movies. The test is simple:

1) Two short people talk to each other

2) Not about money or acquisition
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Old June 24 2013, 01:06 AM   #599
Opus
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Randy Newman disagrees.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:22 AM   #600
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
There were practically no human female being in command positions in all the 5 Star Trek series.
While it might not have happened enough, I'm not sure "hardly" is the right word for all of them. Voyager is about one ship, and it's headed by a "human" woman. Enterprise is also about one ship, and the other ship we do see from Starfleet (that I can remember) was headed by a woman, Captain Hernandez. I quite liked her a lot. Deep Space Nine is about a space station by a wormhole that acts as an incoming/outgoing port. So, it only makes sense to see a lot of "aliens." Most of the people in the galaxy (or Alpha, Gamma, and Delta quadrants) are not human. And as I've mentioned, there was a Vice Admiral that was a woman and Kassidy was the captain of her own freighter ship.

And since you are wanting to be super technical about it, at the end of the day, who do you think these "aliens" were played by? Humans, of course.

Having said this, what would be nice is to see some non-white Admirals. I think it's interesting that everyone I've seen is white, with a few women thrown in. Maybe a black lady Admiral or even Starfleet captain for that matter. I don't think they've ever done that in Starfleet with black women. I think I read somewhere that Sulu's daughter ends up being a starship captain, but again, I don't think there's ever been an Asian lady Admiral or a Latina Admiral. It's just a thought...

I just have a bit of a problem with only 'alien' women being capable of command.

Obviously the producers of Star Trek were doubling by having women and aliens being represented in one position.

And I doubt DS9 passes the Bechel Test because I'm sure Bechel was talking about human women.

I'm not really saying DS9 or VOY were sexist. That would be ridiculous. Just that there were not many human females who even temporarily commanded a Starship/Space Station.

Just as in original BSG/Star Wars only men could be pilots

Yes and Keiko was a teacher but I'm talking about having women in charge (not just of O'Brien) just like Kira was at times. Why couldn't they have a human woman in charge of a ship ? Aren't human women capable of it? I think even women are allowed to be 'captains' nowadays. Why not in the 23rd/24th century?

Even some of the 'alien' women who were in command positions were not Starfleet (Kira and T'Pol) or once a man (Dax)
I'm sounding like Janice Lester now.
As to the rest of your post, you say there weren't a lot of women who commanded a starship or space station, but at least on the space station thing, there was only one that we saw on DS9 and that was DS9. So, there also weren't any other men (save for one) that commanded the space station, unless you want to mention Gul Dukat, but he's not "human."

If we are talking purely about starships, then perhaps more women could have been shown as Captains. I'd have to look at the series again to have a definite opinion about that one, and I do plan on doing a DS9 rewatch when I can get around to it. As for the other series, Enterprise did show Hernandez, and she was I think the only or about the only other captain other than Archer since they were just starting to send ships out on missions. Janeway was the captain of the Starship Voyager, but outside of that, I'm not sure.

And with Keiko, you only acknowledge that she was a teacher, and seemingly ignore the fact that she was also a chief botanist. So, I'm sure "chief" means that she was in a position of power and in charge of more than just herself, kind of like how Miles was the chief engineer and all the engineering staff had to answer to him.

Now if you really want to make an argument here, you could say that we could have seen Keiko in the field as cheif botanist a bit just like we saw her running the school. An episode featuring that could have worked with Miles going to visit her for some reason, and then something going awry. Still, I think they handled her character well enough considering that she's a main cast/crew member's wife. She got far more coverage and better treatment than most spouses I've seen in Trek. Usually, you don't even see them. You just hear about them.

Deep Space Nine handled secondary, recurring, and minor characters probably better than most series, and that includes non-sci-fi as well as sci-fi.
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