RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,065
Posts: 5,397,753
Members: 24,732
Currently online: 509
Newest member: phurren

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

City on the Edge of Forever #3 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

TV Alert: Shatner TNG Documentary
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 22 2013, 09:40 PM   #76
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Here is a nice dominion inspired one.

Drone denial.

A modified quicking bio weapon that stays dormant unless it detects borg tecnology then it activates killing of the population denying new drones.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 10:29 PM   #77
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Similar things could deny the Borg technology as well as warm bodies: hair-trigger self-destruct mechanisms would leave them high and dry in their attempts at assimilating Starfleet spacecraft.

Considering the massive scope of the Borg community as revealed in VOY, though, it would probably be hopeless to try and affect Borg strength by merely denying them the use of a pitiful ten billion bodies per planet. On the other hand, among ten billion might very well always be one or two individuals capable of causing havoc similar to that created by Hugh or Icheb at their (re-)assimilation, just out of natural reasons. So better let those billions be assimilated than have them preemptively killed, statistically speaking.

Of course, Picard, our very own expert on the Borg, doesn't think statistically - in ST:FC at least, he quite specifically kills those at risk of getting assimilated. Since he's capable of ruthless calculation on many other occasions, he probably very well knows what he's doing there. This skipping of the chance that the victim might hurt the Collective might establish that Picard's Locutus side knows the chance is way too small to count.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 10:38 PM   #78
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

1 or two planets no not effective.

But we are talking the domion here who would go out there way to try and infect as much the gamma quadrent as possible. So with borg losses in trying to take the domion being high they would have trouble getting easy drone replacements without sending them from other places.

And im sure section 31 would try and infect most the alpha/beta quadren


Its a weapon for the long run.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 11:12 PM   #79
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

It would be a possible way to hunt the Borg to extinction, yes. But why try such a thing if it doesn't result in your own survival, or even contribute to the survival of your friends and neighbors? Sacrificing one planet is fine for greater good, arguably. Sacrificing all of them means defeat.

Unless the idea is that the Borg would stop because they realize they aren't getting Drones this way. But why should they stop? They aren't losing anything by making all these rigged planets go poof. That is, they wouldn't win anything by ceasing to make them go poof.

I guess it comes down to whether the Borg are serious about their two fundamental agendas: seeking perfection and spreading it to the masses through assimilation. The one and only reason not to hit a species rigged for self-destruct would be because the Borg feel pity for the lost souls. But the Borg might feel that any folks left unassimilated and thus unsaved will contribute to imperfection, so it's a good idea to have them die of the self-destruct plague!

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 05:23 AM   #80
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
Why shouldn't they be sending at least monthly reports on their progress to their superiors?
Two reasons:

1) They don't HAVE any superiors. Genesis was a civilian project under Carol Marcus' personal control that needed the Federation only for funding and research grants (which they got in the form of Reliant and assistance from the Starfleet Corps of Engineers). It was nobody's business but Carol's HOW Genesis worked, only THAT it worked, and to what extent.

2) Stage One was evidently completed without any Federation assistance at all, and the Genesis team was just finishing with Stage Two when Khan showed up and killed everyone. The actual Genesis Device -- which was to be used in Stage Three -- was just a prototype that had never actually been tested before: much larger and much more sophisticated than whatever device they used in Stage Two. It's not even clear at this point that the Genesis team had even furnished their final reports on Stage Two (hence the lack of updates in the Enterprise computer) which means they were still monitoring the Genesis cave, collecting data on the progression while they were waiting for Reliant to find a test site for Stage Three. If the novelization of TWOK is any indication, that final report would have been EXTREMELY pessimistic once it was realized that the genesis matrix was so inherently stable.

IOW, they did NOT provide component-by-component reports on Genesis to the Federation because that data didn't belong to the Federation and they had no right to receive it in the first place. Compare with the COTS and CCICap programs NASA uses; the SapceX company has to demonstrate certain milestones if they want to receive continued funding, but they sure as hell don't have to furnish NASA with detailed blueprints and design notes on how to actually build and manufacture a Dragon capsule. Not purely because that information would be useless in the absence of a specialist who knew how to interpret the data, but because that information is proprietary and NASA has no business asking for it unless they have a legitimate reason.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 01:04 PM   #81
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

1) They don't HAVE any superiors.
That sounds really, really implausible. They have a space station and a starship, both Starfleet issue, and they report to Admiral Kirk in at least some capacity. By the looks of the security arrangements, their research is behind generic Starfleet seals, rather than in Kirk's private archives. And they toy with entire planets.

If anything, I'd think they do a lot more paperwork than the average skunk works that only develops weapons one can test in a closed range a Klingon agent would be hard pressed to penetrate...

It was nobody's business but Carol's HOW Genesis worked, only THAT it worked, and to what extent.
With something this big, the standard procedure ITRW would be that Carol would have to give weekly urine samples and reports on who she had sex with, how, for how long, and what he said about it. If Carol tried to say "Trust me, I'm doing my job, you'll see the results when it's finished", ITRW they'd first have to fire her and then have to kill her.

Stage One was evidently completed without any Federation assistance at all
...Except for the entire setup where Carol gets a lab, a team and a planetoid, eventually complete with a cave that must cost the taxpayers a fortune in no-this-is-not-money if it tied down Starfleet's finest for so long. SCE would definitely say "no thanks" if Carol had nothing to show for her progress on Stage One.

IOW, they did NOT provide component-by-component reports on Genesis to the Federation because that data didn't belong to the Federation and they had no right to receive it in the first place.
To the contrary, there's no reason to believe Carol had any rights to the research she was conducting. It would be extremely rarely ITRW that somebody like her would. It's not a commercial product she's developing, it's the next Manhattan Project. David had the right idea all along: the research is Starfleet's to take, and they don't have to ask for permission from Carol's team or even the government because they know that Carol's direct boss is Admiral Kirk.

That is, it's clear the Reliant and its Captain Terrell don't have the authority to take Genesis, despite the big guns and the shoulder brass. But the name of Kirk changes everything. Carol despairs over the issue of "proper authorization", an issue where Kirk's word apparently is crucial - meaning he can give this authorization or deny it. Kirk (or the government through him) owns Genesis, Carol just works for him (that is, for the government).

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 07:24 PM   #82
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
1) They don't HAVE any superiors.
That sounds really, really implausible. They have a space station and a starship, both Starfleet issue
They HAVE a space station. The Reliant has been placed at their disposal, but Reliant's commander answers to Starfleet, not Carol Marcus.

And Carol Marcus answers to no one, ESPECIALLY not to Reliant, and is understandably pissed when that situation suddenly changes without explanation.

and they report to Admiral Kirk in at least some capacity.
If by "report to" you mean "Make angry phone calls to your ex boyfriend who also happens to be a high-ranking Admiral in Starfleet."

By the looks of the security arrangements, their research is behind generic Starfleet seals
The PROPOSAL is behind generic seals. The actual research is absent from the computers of both Enterprise AND Reliant. Khan assumed Kirk would have more information because the Admiral would presumably have access to sensitive information like that; it's hardly the first thing Khan has been wrong about.

If anything, I'd think they do a lot more paperwork than the average skunk works that only develops weapons...
Except Genesis isn't a weapon, and the Genesis Team -- unlike Skunkworks -- isn't working under Starfleet's umbrella. Remember Carol's use of words here: "Project Genesis: a Proposal to the Federation."

IOW, it's a purely civilian project. Starfleet assistance is part of the funding she asked for; Starfleet OVERSIGHT was never part of the deal.

With something this big, the standard procedure ITRW would be that Carol would have to give weekly urine samples and reports on who she had sex with
IF she was a member of Starfleet and IF Genesis was a government program. But it isn't. It's a civilian program receiving government funding.

Genesis is the Polywell Fusion Reactor, not the Manhattan Project.

Stage One was evidently completed without any Federation assistance at all
...Except for the entire setup where Carol gets a lab, a team and a planetoid, eventually complete with a cave that must cost the taxpayers a fortune in no-this-is-not-money if it tied down Starfleet's finest for so long.
Stage One was completed in a laboratory before they got ANY of that; Regula-1 and Reliant were an answer to her proposal in funding for Stage Two.

SCE would definitely say "no thanks" if Carol had nothing to show for her progress on Stage One.
Exactly. She'd already completed stage one BEFORE she asked the Federation for funding. Thus Genesis started as a civilian project initiated with the 23rd century equivalent of "private funds."

IOW, they did NOT provide component-by-component reports on Genesis to the Federation because that data didn't belong to the Federation and they had no right to receive it in the first place.
To the contrary, there's no reason to believe Carol had any rights to the research she was conducting.[/quote]
Carol was the ONLY one with the rights to the research, hence the reason she was so pissed off when Chekov told her she was coming to get it. Hence the deleted lines (preserved in the Director's Cut) where she tells him "Genesis is a civilian project under my authority" and later tells him "I have no intention of allowing unauthorized personnel access to our work or materials."

"Unauthorized personnel" in this case means "You." E.g. "Starfleet." E.g. "People who do not work for me and I do not trust."

It would be extremely rarely ITRW that somebody like her would.
Dr. Robert Bussard did it for 30 years. Why would Marcus be any different?

It's not a commercial product she's developing
Yes it is. Again her proposal "When you consider the cosmic problems of population and food supply, the usefulness of this process becomes clear."

Genesis is a terraforming device, not a weapon.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 08:31 PM   #83
SarYehudah
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Location: Margaritaville, Florida
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Silanda wrote: View Post
Sandoval wrote: View Post
People posting pictures of tommy-guns and hailing these as the answer to combat the Borg always make me laugh. How stupid can you be?

The tommy-gun worked because the Borg Collective had never been shot at with a tommy-gun, not because some weapon from the 1920s is the holy-grail to defeating Borg drones.

You can't mow down hundreds of drones with them time after time because they adapt, just like how phasers work for a while.

Surely anyone with working brain can understand that?
The thing that's always bugged me about that line of thought is that it's somewhat hard to believe that not once, in all the worlds they have assimilated, have they encountered simple slug throwers. A bullet is a bullet is a bullet, they shouldn't have to adapt to every specific type of gun. They're also vulnerable to direct physical assault.

Is there an example in all of Trek where the Borg have adapted to attack by a weapon that is not energy based?
I don't believe they can adapt to physical force, which includes bullets, rockets, flamethrowers, etc.... You can kill them in hand to hand. It's not so much a matter of that i think. Most planets use energy weapons for defense and if the borg ever found themselves facing a ground army of tanks, rocket launchers, soldiers armed with assault rifles, they can simply destroy them when they are out of range. Also their Cubes can cut up pieces of a planet's surface and suck up the poor suckers to be assimilated. this is what happened in Vendetta.
SarYehudah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 09:09 PM   #84
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

I loved that novel. The brute force apprach, a return to slug throwers, maybe a handful of Denobulans resistant to their tech makes the Borg go from assimilation to annihilation in the later novels--that and getting rid of the borg queen as a point of weakness.
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:10 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.