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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 22 2013, 08:17 PM   #76
M'Sharak
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined.
Call me skeptical, but an assertion like that makes me want to see the list of all references, with statistical breakdown by series and/or movie.
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Old June 22 2013, 08:28 PM   #77
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They're not REFERENCING the original series, though. They're partly copying it but mostly replacing it. A few elements carry through, but it's not a reference so much as a replay with extensive modifications.
That's semantics at this point. They are clearly referencing to the various movies, they mention Chapel, etc. You could also say that any mention of NX-01 or Archer is "carrying a few elements through" or "replaying with modifications".

And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined. That's at least one reason to believe that ST09 branches off from THAT universe and that Archer's timeline was separate from TOS all along.
Combined ? Really ? Between Archer's Beagle, the NX-01 and NX prototype, and... what, exactly ? How is 2 (correct me) references more than all other series combined when the movies are based on one of them ?
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Old June 22 2013, 08:47 PM   #78
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

The warp effect does look like what I imagine a deeper realm of subspace world look like
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Old June 23 2013, 04:41 AM   #79
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined.
Call me skeptical, but an assertion like that makes me want to see the list of all references, with statistical breakdown by series and/or movie.
It's actually not that hard to establish considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.
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Old June 23 2013, 05:01 AM   #80
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
They're not REFERENCING the original series, though. They're partly copying it but mostly replacing it. A few elements carry through, but it's not a reference so much as a replay with extensive modifications.
That's semantics at this point. They are clearly referencing to the various movies, they mention Chapel, etc. You could also say that any mention of NX-01 or Archer is "carrying a few elements through" or "replaying with modifications".

And ST09 and STID have, between the two of them, made more references to Enterprise than all of the other Trek series and movies combined. That's at least one reason to believe that ST09 branches off from THAT universe and that Archer's timeline was separate from TOS all along.
Combined ? Really ? Between Archer's Beagle, the NX-01 and NX prototype, and... what, exactly ? How is 2 (correct me) references more than all other series combined when the movies are based on one of them ?
Also including indirect references and visual cues. In particular, the experiment with Archer's Beagle is a double reference, since it basically duplicates the circumstances of Emory's so-called sub-quantum transporter without the need for going into a whole different episode (and transwarp beaming itself seems to be derived from it). The amphitheater which Enterprise depicted as the birthplace of the Federation -- and is probably still the meeting place of the Federation Council -- is also visible as a background element in San Francisco in STID.

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later. Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.

Basically, ST09 and STID are what happens when you take the background of Enterprise and superimpose it on TOS. Beyond that, neither film makes any overt references to their 24th century counterparts at all, EXCEPT for the implication that Spock eventually becomes an ambassador and winds up trying to help the Romulans, which is indirectly a nod to "Unification".
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Old June 23 2013, 10:54 AM   #81
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's actually not that hard to establish
Go !

considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.
Canceled ? Didn't they just end their run at 7 seasons ?

In particular, the experiment with Archer's Beagle is a double reference, since it basically duplicates the circumstances of Emory's so-called sub-quantum transporter without the need for going into a whole different episode (and transwarp beaming itself seems to be derived from it).
I'm sorry but that's a stretch. It's a reference to Enterprise. Count it: one.

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.
Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.
We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that ?

So we're still up to 1 reference in ST09 and 1 (the models) in STID.

And as I said: the entire TOS crew, their ship, technology and backdrop is recreated in those movies. That alone, not counting Khan and the other stuff, is more referencing than Enterprise. But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:38 AM   #82
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.
Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.
How is it *not* a reference to Enterprise?? OK, maybe it's a nod, but a nod is stil in REFERENCE. Besides, those jumpsuits weren't nearly as updated as they should've been for being 80 years in ENT's future, probably to make the reference to ENT more obvious.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.
We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that?
Yup. en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phase_cannon
The cannons of NX-class starships were mounted on retractable turrets which extended from the ship's hull when deployed and rotated as they were being targeted.
The point is that nuTrek is in ENT's timeline so that TOS can be reimagined and everything else can be ignored.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:16 PM   #83
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Maxillius wrote: View Post
How is it *not* a reference to Enterprise??
Because, aside from generally looking like them, it's not those actual uniforms, unlike the models on Marcus' desk.

Yup.
Thanks. I only saw the series once yet.
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Old June 23 2013, 06:44 PM   #84
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
considering that Voyager and DS9 had already been cancelled by the time "Broken Bow" aired and Nemesis hit theaters barely a year later.
Canceled ? Didn't they just end their run at 7 seasons ?
I know Voyager did, but for some reason I had the impression DS9 was planning at least one more season after 7 and they decided not to continue about halfway through.

I'm sorry but that's a stretch.
No more so than the frequent appearance of tribbles is a reference to TOS. I'll be generous, though, and call it an "homage."

The crew uniforms on the Kelvin are another big one; the jumpsuit style is basically an update on the old 22nd century Starfleet uniforms, meant to show a transitional state before the shirt and slacks look 30 years later.
Which is NOT a reference to Enterprise.
Of course it is. Just like Pike and Marcus' uniforms -- and the command insignia on Kirk's dress uniform -- are stylistic references to TMP.

It would be the same if Spock Prime showed up with an IDIC commbadge on his shirt; we wouldn't need to ask what that is a reference to.

Same again for the pop-up phaser turrets on the Kelvin, which the FX team explicitly mention as being inspired by the weapon systems on NX-01.
We didn't see weapons turrets on Enterprise, if memory serves. Do you have a link for that ?
See gunports.
See phase cannons.

And as I said: the entire TOS crew, their ship, technology and backdrop is recreated in those movies.
Which isn't a REFERENCE at all, but a wholesale recreation. Technically it's a SELF reference since it's supposed to be the same universe with minor but interesting alterations.

But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.
Whether I do or not, it doesn't change the fact that STID and ST09 make more references to Enterprise than any other movie or TV series. I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising since none of the other movies/series really had an opportunity to do so before they went off the air... but more importantly, the history established by Enterprise is noticeably different from that established by TOS, enough to wonder if ST09 isn't simply the natural progression from the ENT timeline anyway.
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Old June 23 2013, 08:26 PM   #85
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I know Voyager did, but for some reason I had the impression DS9 was planning at least one more season after 7 and they decided not to continue about halfway through.
Well from what I saw in the DVD extras they just decided not to extend it, and just end it after the regular number of seasons. Nana Visitor said she wanted to continue.

No more so than the frequent appearance of tribbles is a reference to TOS. I'll be generous, though, and call it an "homage."
I didn't say it wasn't a reference, though, but since it's in the same breath, I wouldn't call it two. In any case the number of Enterprise references is dwarfed by the TOS ones. However, since TNG, DS9 and VOY haven't happened except for Spock Prime, one expects ENT to be second in that department.

Of course it is.
The Kelvin uniforms look nothing like those on Enterprise. Unless you can find a quote saying that they were designed with that series in mind, I simply disagree with you on this.

Which isn't a REFERENCE at all, but a wholesale recreation. Technically it's a SELF reference since it's supposed to be the same universe with minor but interesting alterations.
Don't you think we're splitting hairs, here ? Reference, homage, recreation. They're all recalling to prior Trek stuff. There is no reason to have, say, Kirk's uniform be so similar to the original one except to recall TOS.

But if you want to redefine "reference" to exclude the main setting and only include off-hand stuff, be my guest.
Whether I do or not, it doesn't change the fact that STID and ST09 make more references to Enterprise than any other movie or TV series.
Actually, it's only a fact _IF_ you redefine the word.

I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising
I didn't say I found it surprising. I said it wasn't true.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:41 AM   #86
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
I'm deeply confused why anyone would find that surprising
I didn't say I found it surprising. I said it wasn't true.
Then explain it to me. Ball's in your court: Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?

And I ask this because clearly you have references in mind to be so adamant about this; as for me, I hate Voyager and Insurrection WAY too much to start hunting for ENT references there, and I refuse to carefully watch any part of Nemesis until right before the Scimitar opens fire on them. There may be something burred in there, but I haven't seen it, and it's still FAR less than ST09 and STID.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:46 AM   #87
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

...wait, was the claim that Enterprise was referenced by the new movies more than by any other movie or series, or what Enterprise was referenced more by the new movies than any other movie or series ?

Because I understood the latter. If it's the former, then it's even more nonsensical, since NOTHING came out between Enterprise and ST09.

Also, since in our discussion you seemed to agree that they were referencing/calling back to TOS, I still think you meant the latter.

But now you ask this:

Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?
???
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Old June 24 2013, 12:52 AM   #88
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Then explain it to me. Ball's in your court: Which TV series or movies made more Enterprise references than ST09/STID?
I have answered that question several times already.
Clearly I missed it, so be clear.
How many Enterprise references in Voyager and what were they?
How many Enterprise references in Insurrection and what were they?
How many Enterprise references in Nemesis and what were they?

And if you think I didn't, what do you think I meant when I said TNG, DS9 and VOY haven't happened, so we expect ENT to be second. What do you think is first, exactly ?


Are you asking me about their production order or chronological order or is that just a rhetorical question?
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Old June 24 2013, 12:56 AM   #89
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Ok I just went back to the beginning of this. Here's the original post:
Jaro Stun wrote: View Post
(5) If there is one Star Trek show ST09 and STID are proudly referencing as its predecessor, it is Star Trek: Enterprise
So I was right. Your last question makes no sense in context. We are discussing ENT references in ST09/STID in relation to references to other Trek shows in the same two movies, not references to ENT in other shows, which is impossible.

EDIT: And sorry about the edit to my previous post. In my confusion I erased the whole thing and started over because I wasn't sure exactly what you were asking.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:10 AM   #90
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Re: Warp Drive in Star Trek Into Darkness - [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
...wait, was the claim that Enterprise was referenced by the new movies more than by any other movie or series, or what Enterprise was referenced more by the new movies than any other movie or series ?

Because I understood the latter. If it's the former, then it's even more nonsensical, since NOTHING came out between Enterprise and ST09.
Right....

The point is, through no fault of their own, Enterprise -- and everything even slightly related to it -- remains completely unknown throughout every other Trek series. The only one that would be expected to have referenced it would be Nemesis, since as I said earlier it was released AFTER Broken Bow. Conversely, Enterprise very poorly and haphazardly incorporates elements from previous trek series and winds up retconing every single one of them (subspace radio, cloaking devices, Klingons, Ferengi, the Organians, etc).

This suggests that things have been happening in Enterprise VERY differently than they happened in the Prime Timeline, especially if we consider TAS canon, in which case the Bonaventure should have been the first Warp Five starship and Arcerher's mission is at least fifty years earlier than it should be (which makes sense, since as others have mentioned, its technology is at least fifty years too advanced). Either way, SOMETHING screwed up the ENT timeline -- probably Barclay lost his communicator in the men's room or something -- and Starfleet was seen fielding cheap knockoffs of 23rd century technology as early as the 2150s. A century later, we're seeing the same accelerated development: starships of a size and power that would rival some of the 24th century counterparts, yet lacking the refinements and sophistication embodied in the later Ambassadors and Galaxy classes (in the same way that NX-01 was basically a primitive attempt at a Constitution class). It's obvious, then, that ST09 branches off at the ENT timeline, which for whatever reason has a much faster technology progression -- for EVERYONE, it seems not just for Earth -- which is the in-universe reason why it makes multiple overt (and several not so overt) references to some of those historical 22nd century events and TOS does not.

Here's a very interesting question: ignoring, for a moment, the Enterprise novels and given the state of affairs left off after "Babel One" and "Unity," what is the likelihood that the Earth-Romulan Wars EVEN HAPPENED in the Abrams timeline?
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