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Old June 23 2013, 02:25 PM   #1
WesleysDisciple
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Living witness, Implausible?

Its hard for me to imagine, given the way technolagy works in Star trek, that by the 32 century, the federation hasnt colonized most of the galaxy, if not most of this galactic cluster.

Leaving that aside... Any ideas what kind of welcome the Archive of the doctor, would recieve when he got home?

Reintegration with the doctor himself, perhaps, if hes still online?
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Old June 23 2013, 02:31 PM   #2
Gov Kodos
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Space is really big, mind bogglingly big.
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Old June 23 2013, 03:28 PM   #3
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

This being 700 years later, the Federation may well have already expanded out that far. It could ALREADY be there (because given all the fighting, the Kyrians and Vaskans would not yet qualify for Federation membership). So the EMH may not have had far to go before he reached Federation space.
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Old June 23 2013, 03:36 PM   #4
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Thing is, by the SECOND muesem exhibit, enough peace the federation should be seeking first contact if it still exists.
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Old June 23 2013, 03:51 PM   #5
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Its hard for me to imagine, given the way technolagy works in Star trek, that by the 32 century, the federation hasnt colonized most of the galaxy, if not most of this galactic cluster.
Let's do the math. The galaxy has an estimated 400 billion stars. Leave out the 90% in the probably-uninhabitable central bulge and you've got 40 billion disk stars. Let's say maybe 50% are the right spectral type to support a habitable planet, leaving 20 billion -- and current exoplanet studies suggest that nearly all star systems have planets. There's no guarantee a planet in the habitable zone would be the right type, though, so let's conservatively say there are 2 billion habitable planets in the galaxy. At a guess, let's say that one in 20 of those have space-age civilizations, since those seem pretty common in Trek. That reduces it to 100 million civilizations eligible for contact.

Now, let's assume that the Federation masters quantum slipstream drive (as it's begun to do in the novels) or some form of transwarp, so travel time is no object. And let's assume its fleet grows huge enough that it could make first contact with, say, a hundred new warp-capable civilizations every single day galaxy-wide. At that rate, to visit all of them even once would take a million days, or over 2700 years.

At that rate, even after 800 years with quantum slipstream or transwarp, the Federation would've only been able to make first contact with fewer than 1/3 of the spacegoing civilizations in the galaxy, and to establish ongoing diplomatic relations with a far smaller number, since that would take more time.

So no, it's not at all unreasonable that the Vaskans and Kyrians could still be unfamiliar with the Federation after 800 years. The galaxy is simply too huge for every civilization to be acquainted with every other civilization. Indeed, past a certain point it would become unwieldy to try to maintain diplomatic relations with every civilization you can reach. How would you even keep track of millions of other civilizations? It would take forever.


Leaving that aside... Any ideas what kind of welcome the Archive of the doctor, would recieve when he got home?

Reintegration with the doctor himself, perhaps, if hes still online?
They would surely have evolved into very different individuals by that point.
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Old June 23 2013, 06:48 PM   #6
Anwar
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Data said that, despite the Federation being around for 300 years or so, that they'd only explored and mapped out like 8% of the Galaxy.

So by 700 or so years later, yeah it's not hard to believe they still aren't where the Kyrians and Vaskans are.

Remember that Voyager got home so fast because they kept making those massive LY jumps.
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Old June 23 2013, 07:15 PM   #7
Finn
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Its hard for me to imagine, given the way technolagy works in Star trek, that by the 32 century, the federation hasnt colonized most of the galaxy, if not most of this galactic cluster.

Leaving that aside... Any ideas what kind of welcome the Archive of the doctor, would recieve when he got home?

Reintegration with the doctor himself, perhaps, if hes still online?

Why should have the Federation colonized the Delta Quadrant?
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Old June 23 2013, 07:40 PM   #8
Mage
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

The only part I found really implausible, was the part about the Doctor's back-up. All this fuss in the beginning of the show about how bad it was to loose the Doc, it turns out they have a back-up.

Other then that, fantastic episode!!
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Old June 23 2013, 07:45 PM   #9
Mistral
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Its hard for me to imagine, given the way technolagy works in Star trek, that by the 32 century, the federation hasnt colonized most of the galaxy, if not most of this galactic cluster.

Leaving that aside... Any ideas what kind of welcome the Archive of the doctor, would recieve when he got home?

Reintegration with the doctor himself, perhaps, if hes still online?
Here's my take on it: http://adastrafanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=62
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Old June 23 2013, 07:50 PM   #10
MacLeod
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Mage wrote: View Post
The only part I found really implausible, was the part about the Doctor's back-up. All this fuss in the beginning of the show about how bad it was to loose the Doc, it turns out they have a back-up.

Other then that, fantastic episode!!
It was one of VOY's better episode, aside from as you say the massive plot hole.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:41 PM   #11
R. Star
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Yeah, this episode does have a huge flaw hole as mentioned. Really the concept a computer program can't be -copied- is silly anyways. But the episode is so good, a viewer can tend to overlook that.

The whole "mirror universe" Voyager is just awesome to watch, and the revisionist history is a very real subject for us today to make us think about how we're applying it to our own culture.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:02 AM   #12
Charles Phipps
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

Hilariously, you could just assume they considered the Federation a bunch of evil Space Nazis and avoided them--so the Doctor found out the Federation was like a light year away.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:06 AM   #13
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Really the concept a computer program can't be -copied- is silly anyways.
A program, sure. But a sentient consciousness is not a program, it's an emergent process. Even if you did copy the basic programming that defined its substrate level of activity and replicated its initial conditions as closely as you could, the mind that resulted when you actually ran it wouldn't be quite the same as the one that emerged the first time -- just as if you run a complex enough simulation more than once, you can get different results each time.

Also, if the Doctor's consciousness is based in quantum computing, then it probably wouldn't be copyable. Measuring quantum state information precisely enough to replicate it elsewhere -- i.e. quantum teleportation -- destroys the original information, due to quantum conservation laws.

So really, the Doctor having a backup at all is problematical, given that he was otherwise consistently portrayed as being unique, only able to be moved from one computer or emitter device to another rather than being copied. And in the later "Message in a Bottle," I think it was, Tom and Harry were struggling to create a backup as if they'd never had one before. So it's a tough episode to reconcile.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:48 AM   #14
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

The explanation given in the show that the Doc can't be copied is that his data is so massive it has to be stored in a manner that it must be maintained by an active process and can't be straight duplicated, like the transporter buffer.

It's possible the Federation was not able to expand that far because they were blocked by other powers along the way, or because their supply lines would be too long if they tried to expand that far. It's likely deep space vessels have been there by the 32nd century. But if there were, the ship would have probably been using Voyager's logs for reference, so they would have expected hostility and spied on them first and realized that they did still have animosity toward the Federation, then steered clear.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:06 AM   #15
Christopher
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Re: Living witness, Implausible?

^See, I don't think it's plausible that a single civilization could ever spread across that much of the galaxy. Again, it's a matter of sheer numbers. A single central organizing principle, whether a government or a defining national/cultural identity, can only encompass so many entities before it gets spread too thin. Any given part of the whole will only be practically able to communicate or interact with a finite number of other parts, so the wider it spreads, the less the entities on its outskirts will be connected to one another and the more they'll drift apart. The Federation could only grow to a certain size before the constituent subcultures on its fringes evolved different definitions of what the Federation was, or developed a sense of identity separate from other parts of the Federation. So eventually they'd schism into distinct political and social entities. It's inevitable. When we're talking about hundreds of millions or billions of worlds, there's just no way a single civilization could encompass any significant percentage of the whole. Maybe the UFP can establish friendly relations with like-minded neighbors who have friendly relations with like-minded neighbors and so on and so on, forming a chain of connections from one end of the galaxy to another, but beyond a certain point that chain would stretch so far that the civilizations at opposite ends of it would have effectively no contact at all.
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