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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 22 2013, 05:26 PM   #526
Pauln6
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
It's amusing to see you twist and turn to make STID seem like a sexist movie, but excuse the character-assassination scene in TMP.

In the end, I think you (and that includes everyone who thinks STID is sexist) are the sexist here, not Abrams and Co.
LOL!

(and that was genuine laughter this time)
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Old June 22 2013, 05:39 PM   #527
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.
I think I have a concept of what I'm aiming for even if I may not be able to articulate it very well. Watch an episode of Defiance. The dynamic between the sexes and gender roles between the different species is sort of what I'm aiming for.

I'm advocating greater numbers largely because the more women you feature, the more likely you are to feature them in diverse roles. Some will be girly, some will be kick ass,some will be smart, some will be dumb, some will be in their underwear but the overall balance will be good.

Going back to Ilia, I agree that Deltan pheromones are a bit of a Roddenberry wet dream (but lets not forget that Gaila had them too). But I rather like the concept of Deltans as creatures who are sensitive to pheromones, making them empathic (rather than bog-standard psychic empathy) and who can control emotional states by modifying their own pheromone output. It looks like fertile ground compared to the watered down betazoids.
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Old June 22 2013, 06:52 PM   #528
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.
I think I have a concept of what I'm aiming for even if I may not be able to articulate it very well.
I do too. You're aiming for quotas: any particular scene should have X number of women for every Y number of men. You're willing to accept switching male extras for female extras in order to accomplish this goal; you're willing to accept female characters having fewer or less important speaking parts if it means they at least got into the film at all. You do so with the assumption that just by the law of averages, SOME of those extras will somehow be developed into richer characters or have their roles expanded as a matter of happy creative accident.

In doing so you have completely ignored -- EVERY TIME -- the expanded roles of Marcus and Uhura. You have completely ignored -- EVERY TIME -- the fact that a negative portrayal of women is less preferable than no portrayal at all. You have completely ignored -- EVERY TIME -- the simple fact that a male-dominated creative process is NOT more likely to lead to positive creative twists, but rather negative ones preferentially cater to the overwhelmingly male audience of science fiction.

You are, in other words, spectacularly missing the point.

I'm advocating greater numbers largely because the more women you feature, the more likely you are to feature them in diverse roles.
And this is the last time I'm going to point this out to you: as far as science fiction is concerned, those diverse roles are significantly less likely to be positive ones. You glossed over this with my earlier example (I have no idea why) but it's the same issue as someone realizing "There aren't a lot of good black characters in movies" and then addressing the issue by hiring an all-black cast for a movie about gangsters and prostitutes.

And is, incidentally, the same problem with affirmative action. Quotas are counter-productive if you give no consideration to the people you fill them with; OTOH, once you start considering people on their merits, the quotas become irrelevant.

Going back to Ilia, I agree that Deltan pheromones are a bit of a Roddenberry wet dream (but lets not forget that Gaila had them too). But I rather like the concept of Deltans as creatures who are sensitive to pheromones, making them empathic (rather than bog-standard psychic empathy) and who can control emotional states by modifying their own pheromone output. It looks like fertile ground compared to the watered down betazoids.
And is positive proof that male-to-female quotas won't address the issue at all. Because when it comes to characterization, quality is actually more important than quantity. Nowhere is this more evident than in some of the more recent Ben Bova novels, which do a lot of blatant and awkward pandering to feminist memes while at the same time portraying the majority of its female characters as being basically disposable sex objects with wooden and forgettable personalities (or Tomboy crpyto-Lesbians, in the case of Pancho Lane).

In this case, the producers of TMP chose to create a novel female character in the personage of Ilia. They were NOT looking to create a female character for the sake of representing females in a positive light or examining the nature of gender roles in speculative alien societies. They were seeking to flesh out an interesting character and one of the attributes of that character was that of being female.

IOW, we don't need to add more women to the science fiction in the hope that some of them will be better characters. We need to add better characters to science fiction, knowing that some of them will be female.
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Old June 22 2013, 07:47 PM   #529
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I find it hilarious that we're supposed to consider STiD the most sexist movie ever made because of a two-second bikini scene, yet we should give TMP a pass for having a bald Indian supermodel prancing around for half the movie in a skimpy white robe, nylons and clear stripper heels because she had a scene where she talked to Christine Chapel.

Good luck with your 'cause'.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:48 AM   #530
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
Look how much T'Pol is shown, we never see this much male EVER:
Does it count if they're covered in white foam?



I'm curious what all the dudes on the ship were up to when they died, since they all had towels draped over their junk. Mass auto-erotic asphyxiation?



We almost caught a glimpse of the Captain's Dinghy (oh wait, Picard insisted that they call it the Captain's Yacht instead).
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Old June 23 2013, 12:58 AM   #531
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Heh, what is the Picard pic from Locutus?

Oh and LOL on the white foam.. clearly almost nudity is okay if you're not meant to be seen as sexy.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:58 AM   #532
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.
I think I have a concept of what I'm aiming for even if I may not be able to articulate it very well.
I do too. You're aiming for quotas: any particular scene should have X number of women for every Y number of men.

And this is the last time I'm going to point this out to you: as far as science fiction is concerned, those diverse roles are significantly less likely to be positive ones.

IOW, we don't need to add more women to the science fiction in the hope that some of them will be better characters. We need to add better characters to science fiction, knowing that some of them will be female.
I'm glad it's the last time you are going to say it because I don't agree with it - or rather I don't agree that this would have to be the case in Trek. It certainly isn't the case in NuBSG or Defiance. Please look at Defiance as a better example of what gender roles in Trek could be. Yes, it's a series so just pick two episodes and see what you've got to work with.

Never mind that, watch Defiance because it is very good sci fi.

With the final statement the principle difference between us is that I cannot see that the writers of a Trek franchise if they were 'required' to introduce more women would find a way to make them all bitches and ho's. With more numbers would come more captains, more admirals, more romulan officers, more klingon warriors, because those are the characters that Trek features. The problem with your final statement is that writers could easily do that now and yet they haven't. If it's a laudable goal, your statement does nothing to help adjust the status quo that currently doesn't lead to enough of the characters being women.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:04 AM   #533
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I'm advocating greater numbers largely because the more women you feature, the more likely you are to feature them in diverse roles.
Doubtful.

Writers create characters that tell the story they need to tell.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:13 AM   #534
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I'm advocating greater numbers largely because the more women you feature, the more likely you are to feature them in diverse roles.
Doubtful.

Writers create characters that tell the story they need to tell.
So the writers of Defiance need to tell a story that has more women in it?
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Old June 23 2013, 01:16 AM   #535
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
So the writers of Defiance need to tell a story that has more women in it?
I have absolutely no idea what "Defiance" is, nor do I care at this point. I'm guessing it's never reached Australian commercial TV?

Writers create characters that tell the story they need to tell. I thought we were discussing JJ's Star Trek?

ADDITIONAL:

Haha! I just Googled and now realise that "Defiance" is a new SF TV series starring Aussie actor Grant Bowler. I saw his pic on posters all over Glasgow and Edinburgh when I was there in April. I assumed it was an ad for a new video game?
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Old June 23 2013, 01:17 AM   #536
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
Heh, what is the Picard pic from Locutus?
I believe that's from "Chain of Command, Part 2" - Picard is beginning to wonder whether there might actually be five lights.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:28 AM   #537
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
So the writers of Defiance need to tell a story that has more women in it?
I have absolutely no idea what "Defiance" is, nor do I care at this point. I'm guessing it's never reached Australian commercial TV?

Writers create characters that tell the story they need to tell. I thought we were discussing JJ's Star Trek?
We are. Defiance is a good example of the level of gender balance that I think Trek should be aiming for. The kind of gender balance that some people have suggested can only be achieved if women take over writing sci fi.

Google is your friend. It's written, directed, and produced (largely) by men with two producers out of ten being women.

Seriously though - it's very very good. Keep an eye out for it.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:32 AM   #538
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I wouldn't say Defiance is very very good but it has markedly gotten more interesting by episode 9 which is what it is up to. Sci fi fans should be used to waiting out first seasons for the the goodness to commence

But you know that is a series. A movie is not going to spend 2 hours developing multiple characters and in the case of TOS Star Trek we already know that the two main characters will be male. I would like to think that if a new JJseries started with Kirk and Spock in it there would be well written women characters who did more than just kiss Our Heroes.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:37 AM   #539
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Google is your friend. It's written, directed, and produced (largely) by men with two producers out of ten being women.
Already Googled and amended my post before you posted. I only Googled out of curiosity and momentary boredom.

Seriously though - it's very very good. Keep an eye out for it.
It's apparently already premiered in Australia while I was OS. Zero local publicity. It's on satellite. I haven't bothered with satellite TV so it'll likely stay well beyond my radar.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:38 AM   #540
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

teacake wrote: View Post
I wouldn't say Defiance is very very good but it has markedly gotten more interesting by episode 9 which is what it is up to. Sci fi fans should be used to waiting out first seasons for the the goodness to commence

But you know that is a series. A movie is not going to spend 2 hours developing multiple characters and in the case of TOS Star Trek we already know that the two main characters will be male. I would like to think that if a new JJseries started with Kirk and Spock in it there would be well written women characters who did more than just kiss Our Heroes.
Defiance also mixes up the genders of the support characters.
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