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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 22 2013, 12:59 AM   #31
marksound
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Re: Genesis Question

Again, sir, I asked for an explanation of a statement made in this thread. If you don't want to explain, fine. You didn't make the statement. I'm starting to doubt if you know what it meant anyway.

If Timo didn't want to answer my question, he could have said "I don't want to answer your question" or "I explained all that in another thread (here)" or " Bite me, jinglebrain."

As far as the rest of your post, I think you're trying to start something that will get me in trouble. Too bad, because I'm smarter than that. Not playing your game.

Now, if no one wants to tell me why James T. Kirk is a "professional murderer" I'll go on about my business.

In real life.
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Old June 22 2013, 01:04 AM   #32
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
If you really wanted to try to make me look like a dumbass you'd find the answer yourself and link to it. It wouldn't work, but it's worth a shot.
I told you where the answer was. Are you that helpless that you couldn't go to the thread yourself?

--Sran
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Old June 22 2013, 10:01 AM   #33
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

And right after you asked, I told you what the answer was. Right here in this thread. Comprehension difficulties?

To recap: if Marcus cares about microbes, she probably belongs to the group of people who call soldiers baby killers and spit on their faces at airports a lot.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 22 2013, 01:35 PM   #34
Tomalak
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Re: Genesis Question

Yeah, Carol was definitely more pragmatic. There's nothing in TWOK which precludes the possibility she met Kirk when she was a Starfleet scientist/weapons expert.

The whole nature of Genesis has massive moral implications, which she didn't seem too concerned about. She wanted to create new life on a cosmic scale, and seemed to have a bit of a chip on her shoulder about it ("can I cook, or can't I?").

It would have been interesting to keep her around in the next film, where she would effectively have been the Robert Oppenheimer of the Star Trek universe, having created a superweapon and becoming the destroyer of worlds.

David was young and reckless in using illegal material to make his bomb, presumably because he loved him Mum and wanted her life's work to be a success. But she must have known what was going on too. Maybe he was covering for her when he confessed to Saavik?

Either way, they screwed up, and hopefully after the Genesis incident, she faced the appropriate malpractice lawsuit from the families of her dead team.
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Old June 22 2013, 03:36 PM   #35
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Either way, they screwed up, and hopefully after the Genesis incident, she faced the appropriate malpractice lawsuit from the families of her dead team.
It's likely she was punished in some way as shit always rolls downhill when things go wrong. But I don't know that any of the families affected by Genesis would even have known what their loved ones were involved in. Governments often provide alternative explanations of why a person passed away in the event the person in question was involved in classified work.

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Old June 22 2013, 08:02 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

David was young and reckless in using illegal material to make his bomb, presumably because he loved him Mum and wanted her life's work to be a success. But she must have known what was going on too. Maybe he was covering for her when he confessed to Saavik?
Let's think about this a bit. David probably didn't hide a canister of protomatter aboard the Genesis torpedo as such - it's more likely that he programmed the Genesis process in such a fashion that at some point, creation and expenditure of protomatter was involved. That's something a software specialist could easily hide from a non-specialist. Well, not trivially easily, but still.

The question then goes, was David the team's programming specialist? He was the only one talking about cramming bytes into the thing. It's possible the rest of the team were specialists in other fields, while David was both the ultimate programmer with the highest clearances after Carol, and somebody who knew the most about the big picture after Carol. Or, for all we know, David was the brains behind the outfit, and Carol was the established researcher whose name brought the credibility and the funding.

Protomatter could in theory have been David's very own personal secret, then. Or then it was shared with Carol, or with the entire team, or with a thousand people in Starfleet. But how dirty a secret was it in the end?

Saavik says the planet is not what David intended. Either she has read the specs (since she's supposed to be a mission co-specialist on Genesis), or then she simply reads David; it's a no-brainer in either case. David says that yes, the planet is a disappointment. Saavik asks why. David then says "protomatter".

David most probably is saying that Genesis failed because protomatter failed to do what it was supposed to achieve. Saavik chides him for having used an unstable substance or phenomenon that is known to pose ethical problems. But we get no idea what those ethical problems might be. So "ethical scientists" say the stuff is dangerously unpredictable. What does this matter? Does the stuff kill people or what?

Saavik subsequently accuses David of being responsible for the deaths relating to the Genesis project. But this is inane - those deaths would all have taken place even if David had not used protomatter, or hadn't been involved in the project at all. Every death was the result of the project existing, not a result of the project being a success or a failure. So Saavik can be discounted as a reliable source for evaluating the worth of protomatter in the project outright - she's simply off her rocker. (Perhaps David is driving her insane with lust?)

So what "malpractice" would be involved in Genesis? Protomatter didn't kill anybody. Carol or David didn't kill anybody. Khan killed a lot of people, and Kirk then killed some more, but that's got nothing to do with the Marcuses or their scientific work.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 22 2013, 08:35 PM   #37
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
Or, for all we know, David was the brains behind the outfit, and Carol was the established researcher whose name brought the credibility and the funding.
I like this idea. There's even dialogue in TWOK that suggests it when David comments that his mother will be remembered with Newton, Einstein, and Surak. Carol says, "That's a lot, and no respect for my offspring."

Timo wrote:
Carol or David didn't kill anybody. Khan killed a lot of people, and Kirk then killed some more, but that's got nothing to do with the Marcuses or their scientific work.
You need to get off this Kirk-is-a-murderer jag. The only people he killed were Klingons who violated Federation space, destroyed a Starfleet vessel, and killed a Federation scientist while holding two Starfleet officers hostage. Kirk did what he had to do to keep his crew alive and prevent Enterprise from being captured by the Klingons. There is no comparison between what Khan did and what he did.

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Old June 22 2013, 09:50 PM   #38
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

Who sees a "comparison" there? Khan killed people, Kirk killed people, then Klingons killed people, and then Kirk again killed people. It's not a comparison, it's a list of facts - very significantly not including David Marcus, because he never killed anybody.

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Old June 22 2013, 09:54 PM   #39
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
Who sees a "comparison" there? Khan killed people, Kirk killed people, then Klingons killed people, and then Kirk again killed people. It's not a comparison, it's a list of facts - very significantly not including David Marcus, because he never killed anybody.
If you're not making a comparison between the two, then why list the facts in sequence?

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Old June 22 2013, 10:03 PM   #40
marksound
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
And right after you asked, I told you what the answer was. Right here in this thread. Comprehension difficulties?

To recap: if Marcus cares about microbes, she probably belongs to the group of people who call soldiers baby killers and spit on their faces at airports a lot.

Timo Saloniemi
Well, excuuuuuse me.

I did not see a satisfactory explanation of your comment. If you explained yourself, fine. I apologize. The other jinglebrain (and I say that in the most loving way possible) decided to insert himself into something that had nothing to do with him.

But comprehension problems? Really? Probably not. Even at my advanced age I test in the upper levels of whatever measure is trendy these days. I can't keep up with that crap.

Timo, I used to like reading your replies in these threads, but I think now that if you're this condescending in real life (for those of us who have one) I'll probably skip over. Doubtful that I'll miss it.

But hey, stuff like this is why people have always disparaged Star Trek fans. In real life. And probably always will.

Nice talking to ya.
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Old June 22 2013, 10:08 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

Dunno about condescending. I just find you particularly obnoxious.

I mean, do you really think you are being polite and nice or something? You just spew hatred left and right, and then expect none in return. Wake up. Or go to sleep. I know I need some right now.

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Old June 22 2013, 10:14 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

If you're not making a comparison between the two, then why list the facts in sequence?
Sorry, I don't understand. (And I want to emphasize I honestly don't, no "condescending" or rhetorical tricks about it.) I wanted to list everybody who killed for Genesis, so that it could be demonstrated that David is not on that list. Leaving out Kirk would be a grave error, then (although I now notice I left out the Klingons the first time around). But what does "sequence" have to do with it?

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Old June 22 2013, 10:26 PM   #43
marksound
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
Dunno about condescending. I just find you particularly obnoxious.

I mean, do you really think you are being polite and nice or something? You just spew hatred left and right, and then expect none in return. Wake up. Or go to sleep. I know I need some right now.

Timo Saloniemi
Well, thanks. I try.

But hatred? Really? Apparently a lot of people here don't have much of a sense of humor. You don't know me, so I'll let that pass. I've always thought your posts were informed and insightful. Whatever.

This should go to PM if it's to continue.

Or just go to sleep and pretend it never happened ...
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Old June 22 2013, 10:35 PM   #44
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
If you're not making a comparison between the two, then why list the facts in sequence?
Sorry, I don't understand. (And I want to emphasize I honestly don't, no "condescending" or rhetorical tricks about it.) I wanted to list everybody who killed for Genesis, so that it could be demonstrated that David is not on that list. Leaving out Kirk would be a grave error, then (although I now notice I left out the Klingons the first time around). But what does "sequence" have to do with it?
My point is that you're not accurately representing the context of each person's actions. Yes, Khan killed for Genesis, but is it fair to say that Kirk did that? I don't think so. Kirk killed people aboard Reliant in self-defense. Reliant fired on Enterprise first, and Kirk ordered his ship to return fire. Nothing Kirk did was unprovoked in that situation. Had he not returned fire, Enterprise would have been destroyed, and Khan would have eventually escaped with the Genesis device in hand. Not a pleasant prospect for the UFP.

Later, Kruge violated Federation space by taking his BOP to Genesis to learn its secrets. He destroyed a Federation ship and held three Federation citizens hostage, killing one. He also fired on Enterprise (though the ship was itself at Genesis illegally) without provokation and then tired to capture the ship to steal classified information about Genesis (and whatever else he wanted). Kirk killed the Klingons in the boarding party by blowing up the ship.

One could argue that he didn't need to allow the Klingons to board the vessel and could have destroyed Enterprise beforehand, but he wasn't trying to get himself or his crew killed, and his own death would not have helped Spock or Saavik, who were still stranded on Genesis. And at the risk of sounding prespicuous, Kruge and his men should not have been in Federation space in the first place. None of their actions were sanctioned by the Klingon High Council, nor did they attempt to negotiate with either Esteban or Kirk for an exchange of information about Genesis upon arriving in orbit.

I don't condone what Kirk did, but I understand why he did it. What I don't understand is why Kruge did what he did. Yes, I'm aware of what he said about his men acting "to preserve their race," but I don't see how or why he would reach such a conclusion without obtaining more information. Genesis had potential as a weapon, yes, but potential is not a guarantee for an adverse outcome. Kruge's behavior caused more deaths than it avoided, all for a planet that destroyed itself within weeks of forming.

Context matters. It doesn't change the actions themselves, but it cannot be ignored when evaluating them.

--Sran
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Old June 22 2013, 10:36 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

I heartily second the latter... I'm still hanging around cross-eyed to see the answer to Sran's puzzling comment, though.

Warm if wary handshakes all around for now, and sorry for the tense atmosphere. I must admit I find it difficult to accommodate people's expectations on the nuances of responses (see post #31 here), but this time around it was doubly difficult: on one hand, I had to ridicule the idea that Carol Marcus would be a rabid soldier-hater, on the other, I had to fend off the idea that this would be related to me playing the role of soldier-hater (specifically Kirk-hater) in that other thread. I think I failed miserably in the latter.

EDIT: Whoops, seems I got the second reply already... Response in next post.

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