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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 21 2013, 07:37 PM   #376
GambitRealm
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Wow... Just wow... What a thread...

You'd think FJ had killed someone's puppy the way he's being maligned here.

I have to go with the point that his blueprints and manual were so popular and well-received at the time, and that they were put in the g---amn Smithsonian, as giving them credibility. As for the whole canon/non-canon debate, and whether his layout was "inaccurate" by show standards - anybody out there who is trying to produce their own deck plans knows that at some point you run out of source material... In other words, you can pack in all the sets you see in the show, and there are still dozens of decks and hundreds of rooms that NOBODY knows exactly what is in there.

So.. To those who seem hell-bent on poo-pooing FJ as a merely a "Lost in Space fan", whose work should be discarded because GR eventually did an about face on the whole blueprints deal, I call shenanigans... His is the only work I have seen that really and truly provides a realistic and complete depiction of a 24-deck interstellar starship, with total redundancies in both upper and lower hulls to allow for separation and autonomous operation of both hulls, as well as the various necessary recreation and storage facilities and large amount of accommodations necessary for a crew of 400+.

I don't find the idea of a swimming pool or a bowling alley implausible at all, in fact I would question a ship design that didn't have such amenities... Since no holodeck technology existed at the time of TOS (I'm talking in the show, not through retconning ST: Enterprise canon), the crew would need real-world exercise and recreation areas, some in the lower hull and some in the upper hull. Water is a natural and effective rehabilitating environment for injuries, etc that may occur during a long voyage, it is not odd at all that one would think of putting a pool into a ship of this size.

A colleague and I have been building and rebuilding a walkable version of the TOS Enterprise for 5 years now, in the Torque game engine. Regardless of the fact that we are the first and so far only people to ever produce something like this and actually RELEASE it to the public, there is a large amount of backlash over our use of FJ's blueprints as a model for our ship... Apparently we are not being "accurate" enough... Now I don't take offense to any of this, to each their own, but I am really surprised at all the lines in the sand I see on this board, which seem to be so totally polar opposite of Trek-inspired philosophy. You'd think that any chance to walk this ship, even with an individual artist's changes they have to make in order for things to actually fit and MAKE SENSE, would be a dream come true for any fan. Personally, I wish all the other people doing such plans and 3D models would release their work as well - there are many ways to interpret the Enterprise, there is no way to be 100% accurate because so much of the ship was NEVER SHOWN. I would love to walk many different versions of the ship, seeing how different artists interpret it. To spend all this time on arguing such trivial points that can never be 100% answered definitively seems to go against the whole Trek philosophy.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

Can't we all just get along?

Peace
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Old June 22 2013, 12:14 AM   #377
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
You'd think FJ had killed someone's puppy the way he's being maligned here.
That's exactly the kind of wrong conclusion a lot of folks have been eager to draw from my comments, even though I was only quoting Franz Joseph from his interviews you'll find at www.trekplace.com.

Fact: He wasn't a Star Trek fan
Fact: He preferred "Lost in Space" (thus I think it's not unfair to call him a fan of this show because he obviously liked it)

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
I have to go with the point that his blueprints and manual were so popular and well-received at the time, and that they were put in the g---amn Smithsonian, as giving them credibility.
Yes, they were popular and well-received and it was an amazing piece of craftmanship. However that didn't automatically make these useful as a guide to the actual interior of the ship as seen in the series, regardless whether the NASM put these on display or not

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
As for the whole canon/non-canon debate, and whether his layout was "inaccurate" by show standards - anybody out there who is trying to produce their own deck plans knows that at some point you run out of source material... In other words, you can pack in all the sets you see in the show, and there are still dozens of decks and hundreds of rooms that NOBODY knows exactly what is in there.
According to my examinations we may have one dozen decks of which we didn't see one thing (other than the exterior windows), but most definitely not "dozens".

But that is not the point! While we do have plenty of room that has not been featured in the series and is open to conjectural and individual interpretation, there are many locations which we did see in the series and no matter which way you turn this around, those locations have to show up in any deck plan project, if you want to have a reproduction of the ship as seen in the series and to which general audiences and fans alike can relate to.

Otherwise it's just a conjectural interpretation, which nevertheless can be entertaining and interesting. Nothing less and nothing more.

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
So.. To those who seem hell-bent on poo-pooing FJ as a merely a "Lost in Space fan", whose work should be discarded because GR eventually did an about face on the whole blueprints deal, I call shenanigans...
This one is good, mixing various accusations into one. I don't know what you imply by "discarded", but I think it would be a good thing that after almost 50 years it's really time we get some deck plans that accurately reflect those areas we did see in the series, therefore and since last year I published several proposals for several decks in my thread to contribute my part of making this dream come true.

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
Apparently we are not being "accurate" enough... Now I don't take offense to any of this, to each their own, but I am really surprised at all the lines in the sand I see on this board, which seem to be so totally polar opposite of Trek-inspired philosophy. You'd think that any chance to walk this ship, even with an individual artist's changes they have to make in order for things to actually fit and MAKE SENSE, would be a dream come true for any fan.
I can only answer this with a theory that may be right or wrong. From an average Joe's point of view the Original Series is no longer state-of-the-art, thus the TOS fanbase today possibly consists mostly of hardcore TOS fans like myself. Many of us have seen the episodes and the interior of the ship dozens of times and "know" what the interior looks like on a conscious and subconscious level. Thus accuracy is very important to me and other fans (the amount of current accuracy driven TOS fan projects is remarkable and encouraging, IMHO) if one intends to successfully convey the illusion of being there.

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
Personally, I wish all the other people doing such plans and 3D models would release their work as well - there are many ways to interpret the Enterprise, there is no way to be 100% accurate because so much of the ship was NEVER SHOWN. I would love to walk many different versions of the ship, seeing how different artists interpret it. To spend all this time on arguing such trivial points that can never be 100% answered definitively seems to go against the whole Trek philosophy.
Admirably said and I wholeheartedly agree, i.e. that it indeed would be quite an experience to explore different interpretations of the ship's interior which we did not see onscreen.

But first things, first and that's the accurate reproduction of all those areas we did see onscreen, IMO.

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
Peace
...and long life! (Vulcan reply to LLAP)

Bob
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"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
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Old June 22 2013, 05:25 PM   #378
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
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Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
Wow... Just wow... What a thread...

You'd think FJ had killed someone's puppy the way he's being maligned here...
I love you, man. You summed up my thoughts on this topic, succinctly.

GambitRealm wrote: View Post
Can't we all just get along?

Peace
You resurrected a topic that had lain dormant for two weeks. Sometimes peace means leaving sleeping dogs lie.
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Old June 22 2013, 09:49 PM   #379
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Shawnster wrote: View Post
You resurrected a topic that had lain dormant for two weeks. Sometimes peace means leaving sleeping dogs lie.
...to which you contributed and thus moved the thread again near the pole position.

But thanks for proving my first statement in my previous post.

Bob
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"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
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