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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 17 2013, 03:22 PM   #106
Gary7
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
It was Data's idea to hack the collective by trying to "access the machine" which controlled Picard. That alone is what saved every living person in The Federation. Well... I suppose it also helped greatly that Picard broke through & gave Data the hint he needed
Everyone's contribution was essential. Had Riker not managed to get Worf and Data aboard to retrieve Picard, Data would not have been able to interface directly with him and then get special access to the Borg collective communication pathways. Had Picard not managed to resurface his consciousness and tell Data "sleep", Data may not have known what to look for. And remember, Geordi had figured out a way to connect Picard into the diagnostic system so that Data could interface with him--had he not done so, Data wouldn't have worked his magic.

Riker was on the "forefront" of the hero list, because he managed the boldest element of those final moments--making the right decisions (ship decoupling and special tactics) to enable his away team to get on board the Borg cube and retrieve Picard. But I'd say Data was right up there with him, because hacking into their systems... that was pretty damn fantastic.
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Old June 17 2013, 04:57 PM   #107
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
It was Data's idea to hack the collective by trying to "access the machine" which controlled Picard. That alone is what saved every living person in The Federation. Well... I suppose it also helped greatly that Picard broke through & gave Data the hint he needed
Everyone's contribution was essential. Had Riker not managed to get Worf and Data aboard to retrieve Picard, Data would not have been able to interface directly with him and then get special access to the Borg collective communication pathways. Had Picard not managed to resurface his consciousness and tell Data "sleep", Data may not have known what to look for. And remember, Geordi had figured out a way to connect Picard into the diagnostic system so that Data could interface with him--had he not done so, Data wouldn't have worked his magic.

Riker was on the "forefront" of the hero list, because he managed the boldest element of those final moments--making the right decisions (ship decoupling and special tactics) to enable his away team to get on board the Borg cube and retrieve Picard. But I'd say Data was right up there with him, because hacking into their systems... that was pretty damn fantastic.
Correct on all counts. I forgot key details of the ep. I'm watching it now in fact. Part 2 is a lot better than I remember.

edit: By the way...had William T. "Can't make the big decision" Riker, successfully impacted the Borg vessel at warp speed, he would have obliterated half the system. So don't tell me Riker can't make big decisions, Shelby!

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Old June 18 2013, 02:00 AM   #108
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I completely agree that Riker needed a good airing out after that episode. That really was something that Picard should have straightened out. Jellico played the hand he was dealt knowing full well that he was going to risk alienating the whole freakin' crew. I really felt like it was a great moment when he told the bridge "It has been an honor to serve with you". I felt like he meant it and regretted that he had to play the hardass. The move to make Data XO when Riker didn't/wouldn't step up was the move that kept Jellico from pushing everybody over the edge. Data showed from the get-go that he would do what was required, but Jellico also had the good sense to realize that Data was speaking the truth when he mentioned that one set of orders was going too far and was willing to pull back when given the facts. As mentioned before Jellico really showed himself to have great character when he took Geordi's advice and asked Riker to pilot the shuttle. Again, showing that when someone earned his respect he was willing to listen to them. Too bad Jellico never crossed paths with the Enterprise again. There was fertile territory there. We also have Jellico to thank for putting Troi in a regulation uniform, which I thought was way overdue. I thought it made her look sharp and professional.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:19 AM   #109
Mojochi
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Mojochi wrote: View Post
It was Data's idea to hack the collective by trying to "access the machine" which controlled Picard. That alone is what saved every living person in The Federation. Well... I suppose it also helped greatly that Picard broke through & gave Data the hint he needed
Everyone's contribution was essential. Had Riker not managed to get Worf and Data aboard to retrieve Picard, Data would not have been able to interface directly with him and then get special access to the Borg collective communication pathways. Had Picard not managed to resurface his consciousness and tell Data "sleep", Data may not have known what to look for. And remember, Geordi had figured out a way to connect Picard into the diagnostic system so that Data could interface with him--had he not done so, Data wouldn't have worked his magic.

Riker was on the "forefront" of the hero list, because he managed the boldest element of those final moments--making the right decisions (ship decoupling and special tactics) to enable his away team to get on board the Borg cube and retrieve Picard. But I'd say Data was right up there with him, because hacking into their systems... that was pretty damn fantastic.
I see that. I don't discount anyone's contributions. It certainly was a team effort that panned out just in time. I'm just saying Riker's main contribution was "let's save Captain Picard" which is like always his big plan. So not really ground breaking in it's genius. Certainly not enough for him to get some kind of heroic glory, when the real miracle worker & ingenious savior was Data, who is the least recognized officer in the fleet. If anyone should be commanding his own vessel it's him, & if people come on board, like Ben Maxwell & personally thank someone for saving everyone, it should be Data they're thanking

I don't really think Riker is a waste or anything, but I see Data get drown out for his excellence so much it annoys me, & Riker being hailed the hero of the Borg attack is #1 on that list

But I've gone off topic far too much here, so I'll shut up now. lol
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Old June 18 2013, 05:25 AM   #110
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

This was a really good episode and one in which I liked every character -- hahah except for Riker. Gul Madred was great and you could tell he really enjoyed his job, and particularly his job with regard to Picard. Jellico was great, Data and Troi were great, and even Gul Lemec was entertaining to watch.

I also think Data and Jellico had a great working relationship and I think Data is the perfect XO for Jellico.

Jellico: "Data, I want to be at Minos Corva in one hour."
Data (without delay): "Aye sir. Set course 350 mark 215, and engage at warp 8.5."

Way to tap your resources, Captain. And I'm pretty sure Data even factored in the time it would take for him to relay the order to con.

Say what you want about Jellico, I think he's a good captain, and he was ready for his mission.
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Old June 18 2013, 05:41 AM   #111
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

There's always room for expounding upon Data's capabilities. He was shorted from the beginning for being an android, even despite Picard's open mindedness. And yeah... probably by being an android, he wasn't given the attention he was due for his extraordinary problem solving.

It's also worth saying that Riker was all about getting Picard back, the "advantage" that they had with the Borg, despite the fact that the Borg would have already absorbed everything that Picard knew. Riker had no idea about the potential hacking that could be done with Picard alive as Locutus. It was a major stroke of luck. But then... being a hero often is. There are many potential heroes out there who never get the chance to be one, because a hero will only be seen for the great cause they undertake. Without the cause, there is no hero.

In CoC, Riker never really did anything rather notable outside of piloting the shuttle through the nebula. Yeah, placing the charges gave him that position of being indispensable, but Geordi or even Data probably could have done it (with greater difficulty). I do agree it would've been nice to see Jellico make a guest appearance again, even if only for a short scene. It would've been an opportunity to see his other side.
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Old June 18 2013, 03:22 PM   #112
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I doubt Data would've broken a sweat laying the mines.
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Old June 18 2013, 04:34 PM   #113
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

BillJ wrote: View Post
I doubt Data would've broken a sweat laying the mines.
Please. We've already covered the ground...twice...of machines replacing people in Star Trek. In fact, in "Booby Trap" they deliberately eschew the computer driving for a more 'human touch'.
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Old June 19 2013, 04:18 AM   #114
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I doubt Data would've broken a sweat laying the mines.
Please. We've already covered the ground...twice...of machines replacing people in Star Trek. In fact, in "Booby Trap" they deliberately eschew the computer driving for a more 'human touch'.
In all fairness, I'd say that Data cannot simply be clumped into the category of computer mechanics in that context. He is the exception to your statement, regardless of how often Star Trek touts the man being better than machine axiom. He's not just a machine. He's a person as much as any of the others. This is Star Trek & that was their intent with him

FKnight wrote: View Post
Say what you want about Jellico, I think he's a good captain, and he was ready for his mission.
He certainly is perhaps the most crafty & ballsy guest officer they've ever had on TNG
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Old June 19 2013, 06:24 PM   #115
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Knowing Star Trek, they would have gone out of their way to show Data lacking 'gut feelings' and pilot intuitiveness....then at the end of the episode would have shown him do something to exhibit those qualities.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:27 AM   #116
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I'd have to side with Riker on this one. If the crew is walking on eggshells around their captain, they're not going to perform well and in a crisis that's dangerous. Jellico was a bad fit for the Enterprise. He needed subordinates that respond well to his leadership style. Riker & Co aren't those people. And I dislike the sheep mentality. I respect Riker simply for standing his ground regardless of whether he's right or wrong. Subordinates afraid to question their superiors is never a good thing.
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Old June 22 2013, 03:17 PM   #117
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sadara wrote: View Post
I'd have to side with Riker on this one. If the crew is walking on eggshells around their captain, they're not going to perform well and in a crisis that's dangerous. Jellico was a bad fit for the Enterprise. He needed subordinates that respond well to his leadership style. Riker & Co aren't those people. And I dislike the sheep mentality. I respect Riker simply for standing his ground regardless of whether he's right or wrong. Subordinates afraid to question their superiors is never a good thing.
These are good points. I agree with them to a certain extent. The problem I have with what Riker did is that he argued with Jellico in front of other crew members. He should have kept his concerns under his hat until he had a chance to speak with Jellico privately.

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Old June 22 2013, 03:51 PM   #118
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

And Riker should've brought up his concerns with the orders immediately, not waiting until hours later to notify Jellico that he had a problem with them.

Jellico had every right to be pissed.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:06 PM   #119
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
I'd have to side with Riker on this one. If the crew is walking on eggshells around their captain, they're not going to perform well and in a crisis that's dangerous. Jellico was a bad fit for the Enterprise. He needed subordinates that respond well to his leadership style. Riker & Co aren't those people. And I dislike the sheep mentality. I respect Riker simply for standing his ground regardless of whether he's right or wrong. Subordinates afraid to question their superiors is never a good thing.
These are good points. I agree with them to a certain extent. The problem I have with what Riker did is that he argued with Jellico in front of other crew members. He should have kept his concerns under his hat until he had a chance to speak with Jellico privately.

--Sran
I can agree with that. I can only surmise that Jellico's unapproachability and Riker's dislike for the man made it difficult for him to want to communicate. Doesn't mean Riker made the right choice there, but that's what I imagine was the cause.
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Old June 22 2013, 07:04 PM   #120
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
I'd have to side with Riker on this one. If the crew is walking on eggshells around their captain, they're not going to perform well and in a crisis that's dangerous. Jellico was a bad fit for the Enterprise. He needed subordinates that respond well to his leadership style. Riker & Co aren't those people. And I dislike the sheep mentality. I respect Riker simply for standing his ground regardless of whether he's right or wrong. Subordinates afraid to question their superiors is never a good thing.
These are good points. I agree with them to a certain extent. The problem I have with what Riker did is that he argued with Jellico in front of other crew members. He should have kept his concerns under his hat until he had a chance to speak with Jellico privately.

--Sran
It was just Troi wasn't it?
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