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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 22 2013, 03:08 PM   #481
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Not sure how I feel about the MACOS becoming Starfleet Security (I'm still sticking with a 'Starfleet Marine Corps' idea - I've always viewed Security as exclusively shipbound security guards, not front line troops) but otherwise, it's great.

Also, is there a retroactive source for the Defiant insignia as shown in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?
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Old June 22 2013, 03:39 PM   #482
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher I like the new uniform designs how did you come up with the ideas for the different designs for uniform patches and signias for the different Starfleet uniforms?
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Old June 22 2013, 03:54 PM   #483
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

It's going to be interesting to see how the fleets, themselves, are integrated. As McCoy observed in Ex Machina, most ships were done by their owner's races. It makes sense when we assume the Federation Starfleet is going to be a bunch of pre-existing Starfleets shoved together.

I, too, like the uniforms.
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Old June 22 2013, 04:54 PM   #484
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Not sure how I feel about the MACOS becoming Starfleet Security (I'm still sticking with a 'Starfleet Marine Corps' idea - I've always viewed Security as exclusively shipbound security guards, not front line troops) but otherwise, it's great.
Firstly, I agree with you that Marines/Ground Troops and shipboard security are two completely different animals. They may have some parts of their respective skill sets in common, but wildly different missions, and it only makes sense that they would be two distinctly different groups. I would think that the MACO forces (as well as equivilent forces of the other founding members of the UFP (andorians, tellarites, etc.) would have been the nucleus of what eventually became the UFMC, or whatever better title there might be for them. Shipboard security personnel continued to be shipboard security personnel, doomed to wear red shirts a hundred years later.

But, I think if there were such forces, wouldn't they be more properly called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC)? Calling them the Starfleet Marines would be like calling the current day USMC the Navy Marine Corps. (Go find yourself a Marine and see how far that flys with him...better yet, don't.)
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Old June 22 2013, 05:09 PM   #485
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Not sure how I feel about the MACOS becoming Starfleet Security (I'm still sticking with a 'Starfleet Marine Corps' idea - I've always viewed Security as exclusively shipbound security guards, not front line troops) but otherwise, it's great.
Well, we've always been shown the same security personnel handling groundside and shipside matters, so that's what I aimed toward. And I wanted to have some tie back to elements of ENT, and to keep Kimura around as part of the crew.

Also, is there a retroactive source for the Defiant insignia as shown in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?
That's just the generic Starfleet emblem we saw throughout TOS -- it's seen on the "racing stripes" on the side of the Enterprise's engineering hull and on the shuttlecraft, and you can usually see it on the wall behind admirals on the viewscreen. I'm not sure what significance it would have in the 23rd-century scheme, but my intent was to keep things loose enough to suggest that my scheme could just be the ancestral form of whatever Starfleet's organizational framework has evolved into by TOS. The distinct fleet insignias could still represent separate fleets in the TOS era -- the Constellation coud've been administered by the Andorian Guard just as the Enterprise is administered by UESPA -- or the structure could've evolved into something else that uses those logos for historical reasons, the same way the historic UESPA arrowhead (whose chronologically earliest appearance is on the Friendship 1 probe) comes to be adopted by Starfleet as a whole by the TMP era.


Reanok wrote: View Post
Christopher I like the new uniform designs how did you come up with the ideas for the different designs for uniform patches and signias for the different Starfleet uniforms?
The mission patches on the sleeves are following the precedent of ENT. I didn't design any specfic ones, and the Starfleet Command patch I described is the one seen in ENT. As for the insignias representing the fleets, I've felt for a long time that that was more likely than having a different one for each individual ship, since we saw a lot of non-Enterprise personnel wearing the arrowhead in "Court-martial." And we now know, thanks to its appearance on the Friendship 1 probe and on the enlisted rating emblems in ENT, that it was a UESPA insignia as far back as the 2060s. Given that Kirk said in the first season that the E was administered by UESPA, it seemed reasonable to assume the arrowhead represented the "UESPA fleet" and that the other ship insignias we saw represented other administrative divisions within Starfleet. As I said above, the European Space Agency provided the model for how early Starfleet could've been organized.

If you're asking how I chose the specific patches: well, the IDIC for Vulcan was obvious. The Antares emblem from "Charlie X" was a good match for Tellar because of its hooflike shape and because I chose them to handle supply and shipping, which would cover freighters. The Constellation "pretzel" looked vaguely like it could be Andorian script, and I figured maybe Decker's ship could've been assigned more to defense than exploration, given his rather aggressive attitude. And the Exeter insignia was the only canonical TOS-era one left, so it went to Alpha Centauri.


Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
It's going to be interesting to see how the fleets, themselves, are integrated. As McCoy observed in Ex Machina, most ships were done by their owner's races. It makes sense when we assume the Federation Starfleet is going to be a bunch of pre-existing Starfleets shoved together.
Initially, yes, but the book does explain why later Starfleet vessels all seem to conform to Earth design sensibilities.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:24 PM   #486
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Initially, yes, but the book does explain why later Starfleet vessels all seem to conform to Earth design sensibilities.
Sweet!
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Old June 22 2013, 05:31 PM   #487
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post

As for the insignias representing the fleets, I've felt for a long time that that was more likely than having a different one for each individual ship, since we saw a lot of non-Enterprise personnel wearing the arrowhead in "Court-martial."
Apparantly, it was never intended for there to be individual ship insignia in TOS, at least according to Mr. Justman:

TO: Bill Theiss
FROM: Bob Justman
SUBJECT: STARSHIP EMBLEMS
DATE: December 18, 1967

Whilst sitting in Dailies today, it was noticed that a Starship Captain (from another Starship) was wearing an emblem unfamiliar to yours truly. I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear.

Doubtless this situation has arisen due to the fact that a different Starship emblem was used last season on “CHARLIE X”. However, the personnel of that other ship in that show were the equivalent of merchant marine or freighter personnel -- and therefore not entitled to bear this proud insignia on their individual and collective breasts.

Please do not do anything to correct this understandable mistake in the present episode. However, should we have Starfleet personnel in any other episodes, please make certain that they were the proper emblem.

Under penalty of death!

Signed this 18th day of December, in the year of our Lord, 1967, by

ROBERT H. JUSTMAN
Chief Inquisitor

CC: Gene Roddenberry
John M. Lucas
D.C. Fontana
Gregg Peters

RHJ:sts
P.S. A carven “I’m sorry!” will be sufficient.
R.H.J.
This memo was quoted in another thread elsewhere earlier this year, but I do not know it's source/origin beyond that.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:41 PM   #488
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^Wow, that's very interesting. It goes against what fans have tended to assume for decades.

From the date, he must've been referring to the Exeter insignia in "The Omega Glory" -- which makes me wonder why he didn't put the kibosh on the Constellation insignia in "The Doomsday Machine" months earlier.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:47 PM   #489
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Wow, that's very interesting. It goes against what fans have tended to assume for decades.
Well, most fans. I've been an advocate of this position for awhile now. And the whole "Starfleet adopted the Enterprise insignia to honor the ship" around the time of TMP has nver sat well with me, either.

From the date, he must've been referring to the Exeter insignia in "The Omega Glory" -- which makes me wonder why he didn't put the kibosh on the Constellation insignia in "The Doomsday Machine" months earlier.
I'm sure he had to be a pretty busy guy. Must've just gotten past him before he could do anything about it.

EDIT TO ADD: Here's the thread that memo appeared in: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=theiss

See post #29. there is some discussion further down the thread speculating on what particular episode might have prompted Justman's memo.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:55 PM   #490
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

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And the whole "Starfleet adopted the Enterprise insignia to honor the ship" around the time of TMP has nver sat well with me, either.
Yeah, I hate that idea. It's rather insulting to the rest of Starfleet to single one ship out for special recognition. And it's mistaking our perspective as viewers for the perspective of people in-universe. We see the Enterprise as central because we're watching a show that chooses to focus on it. But it stands to reason that other starships and their crews are doing equally heroic and important things elsewhere, and are just as worthy of recognition.

And of course it never worked as a theory, because we know from "Court-martial" that other ships used the arrowhead during TOS. And now VGR, ENT, and the Abrams movies have all given us instances of its use by other ships and organizations before NCC-1701.
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Old June 22 2013, 06:05 PM   #491
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
And the whole "Starfleet adopted the Enterprise insignia to honor the ship" around the time of TMP has nver sat well with me, either.
Yeah, I hate that idea. It's rather insulting to the rest of Starfleet to single one ship out for special recognition. And it's mistaking our perspective as viewers for the perspective of people in-universe. We see the Enterprise as central because we're watching a show that chooses to focus on it. But it stands to reason that other starships and their crews are doing equally heroic and important things elsewhere, and are just as worthy of recognition.
Exactly. It's a big galaxy, and surely there were other Starfleet crews out there doing amazing things as well. Fortunately, TrekLit has opened some of those doors and we've seen Vanguard and the like. This has helped the Trek universe seem a bit more real to me.

And of course it never worked as a theory, because we know from "Court-martial" that other ships used the arrowhead during TOS. And now VGR, ENT, and the Abrams movies have all given us instances of its use by other ships and organizations before NCC-1701.
Agreed. Besides, some of the insignia that folks were coming up with were just insane. To be fair, I've seen some really spiffy insignia generated by fandom, also.
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Old June 22 2013, 06:06 PM   #492
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

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But, I think if there were such forces, wouldn't they be more properly called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC)? Calling them the Starfleet Marines would be like calling the current day USMC the Navy Marine Corps.
I just think that the phrase 'Starfleet Marine Corps' sounds better, that's all. It may not be applicable in today's military but within the context of Starfleet, I think the phrase sounds better. And it would fit with Kirk's comment that Starfleet is a combined service.

As for uniforms, my supposition is that the SFMC of the TOS era wears a black uniform. Same design we're familiar with, just in black. Don't you think that would look cool?
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Old June 22 2013, 06:11 PM   #493
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
But, I think if there were such forces, wouldn't they be more properly called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC)? Calling them the Starfleet Marines would be like calling the current day USMC the Navy Marine Corps.
I just think that the phrase 'Starfleet Marine Corps' sounds better, that's all. It may not be applicable in today's military but within the context of Starfleet, I think the phrase sounds better. And it would fit with Kirk's comment that Starfleet is a combined service.
Ear of the beholder, I suppose. Just doesn't scan for me. I agree to disagree with you.

As for uniforms, my supposition is that the SFMC of the TOS era wears a black-colored TOS uniform design. Don't you think that would look cool?
All-black gets to be a bit too SS to my eye. How about the brown/tan shirted folks we see in ST5? That struck me as a good uniform for ground troop type personnel.
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Old June 22 2013, 06:12 PM   #494
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^ If you're worried about black uniforms looking like the SS, wouldn't you also be worried about "brown shirts"?
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Old June 22 2013, 06:15 PM   #495
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ If you're worried about black uniforms looking like the SS, wouldn't you also be worried about "brown shirts"?
You got me there. Realized what I typed about thirty seconds ago.

In any case the brown or tan is much better camouflage in most situations, IMO, than the all-black would be.
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