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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 21 2013, 11:42 PM   #511
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
These two posts of yours are so full of crap.

You really shouldn't lecture anyone about the supposed sexism you see in STID when you completely ignore the blatant sexism pictured in that scene in TMP.
Possibly - I think I just don't understand the nature of your comparison. I certainly wouldn't say it was 'blatant' compared to, say, Ilia's bath robe,
How the hell was that sexist?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
because Scotty has a history of being better than any other crewman with transporters and Kirk is shown to be barging his way in on everybody's turf (including Scotty's) throughout the first half of the movie. It's consistent with the established skill sets and motivations of the characters.

Do you think it was sexist because Rand was emotional?
No. The character acted weak. Traditionally womanly. Nearly Damsel-in-distress-like.
Yes. Kirk pisses all over the place. But Decker, Scott, McCoy at least argued with him. She just took it and stepped back to let the man handle the situation.

None of the female characters in STID acted that way.
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Old June 21 2013, 11:45 PM   #512
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Ripley was plenty girly. She screamed. But she also braved danger, hit the airlock button, and otherwise did what had to be done, even though she was scared. Heck, the audience was scared. I assume they made Lambert that way, to make the point by contrast. Screaming is OK, but freezing isn't.

(P.S. You hacked up my post. The word is "pwned". I meant that. )
Whoopsy - sorry - I don't speak jive!

Although Lambert was generally annoying and whined a lot, it's easy to overlook that she was an officer, a navigator, and was one of the crewmen who went out on the landing party.

The thing I love was when Ripley refused to let them back on the ship. That's the common sense sci fi that was horrifically absent from Prometheus. That movie had so much potential but it fell into the same trap as NuTrek (only more so) of wanting it's principle characters to be shoe-horned in wherever possible. It's heroine was performing ludicrous feats of acrobatics after major surgery and the only character with anything resembling common sense for most of the movie forgot to run sideways at the end David was amazing though.
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Old June 21 2013, 11:55 PM   #513
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
These two posts of yours are so full of crap.

You really shouldn't lecture anyone about the supposed sexism you see in STID when you completely ignore the blatant sexism pictured in that scene in TMP.
Possibly - I think I just don't understand the nature of your comparison. I certainly wouldn't say it was 'blatant' compared to, say, Ilia's bath robe,
How the hell was that sexist?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
because Scotty has a history of being better than any other crewman with transporters and Kirk is shown to be barging his way in on everybody's turf (including Scotty's) throughout the first half of the movie. It's consistent with the established skill sets and motivations of the characters.

Do you think it was sexist because Rand was emotional?
No. The character acted weak. Traditionally womanly. Nearly Damsel-in-distress-like.
Yes. Kirk pisses all over the place. But Decker, Scott, McCoy at least argued with him. She just took it and stepped back to let the man handle the situation.

None of the female characters in STID acted that way.
Well, Ilia could have remained in uniform rather than in a robe so short that she had to have her ears waxed. But the robe was one of the things on which they sold the movie - I had a lot of posters with Stephen Collins and Persis posing back in the seventies...

Scotty is a section chief and Decker was meant to be in command - Rand on the other hand is a non-commissioned officer. Kirk is an admiral and Scotty is her her department chief. I'm still not clear what it was you think she should have done instead. In fact, I don't like the way the junior crew sometimes talk back to Kirk in NuTrek. He's a dick but he's the captain - apart from Bones obviously, because that's his schtick and Scotty where Kirk tests his love of his ship.

I don't think Kirk or Scotty needed to be there to make the scene work but I've never viewed it as particularly sexist because they were. As I say, transporters have always been one of Scotty's things. Do you think the NuChekov scene was sexist too?

It is true that Rand was largely a damsel in distress character in TOS. I think making her more independent would be a good thing but she used to make the coffee - killing people on a transporter pad is definitely a step up!
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Old June 22 2013, 12:29 AM   #514
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Well, Ilia could have remained in uniform rather than in a robe so short that she had to have her ears waxed. But the robe was one of the things on which they sold the movie - I had a lot of posters with Stephen Collins and Persis posing back in the seventies...
Showing skin is sexist?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I'm still not clear what it was you think she should have done instead.
Not freeze, for example.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Do you think the NuChekov scene was sexist too?
No. That scene plays differently.
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Old June 22 2013, 12:38 AM   #515
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Well, Ilia could have remained in uniform rather than in a robe so short that she had to have her ears waxed. But the robe was one of the things on which they sold the movie - I had a lot of posters with Stephen Collins and Persis posing back in the seventies...
Showing skin is sexist?
Lol - where have you been? Some people take the view that the frequent display of lady skin unnecessarily can be deemed sexist. Ripley did love stripping down to her undies though, didn't she? Personally, I think it's all in the context and showing skin is a minor infringement as long as the character overall functions well. Barbarella takes it a bit too far...

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I'm still not clear what it was you think she should have done instead.
Not freeze, for example.
Did she freeze? She looked like she was working the controls and liaising with Starfleet. She only stepped back when Scotty came on the scene because he's far more qualified than she is.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Do you think the NuChekov scene was sexist too?
No. That scene plays differently.
What do you see as different? Is it just the emotional state of the operator?

Is it worth noting that the malfunction isn't Rand's fault and there was nothing that she, Starfleet, Kirk, or Scotty could do. In NuTrek the transporter operator can't do the job with operational equipment.
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Old June 22 2013, 01:31 AM   #516
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I think threads like these with their faux outrage cause more problems than they solve.

In that spirit...



EDIT: For those that think Star Trek Into Darkness and Animal House are similar, Animal House is on EncoreHD at 9:30pm EST.
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Old June 22 2013, 01:39 AM   #517
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's the common sense sci fi that was horrifically absent from Prometheus. That movie had so much potential but it fell into the same trap as NuTrek (only more so) of wanting it's principle characters to be shoe-horned in wherever possible. It's heroine was performing ludicrous feats of acrobatics after major surgery and the only character with anything resembling common sense for most of the movie forgot to run sideways at the end David was amazing though.
This was the first mission to an alien planet, and Shaw was doing what she did because the machine that stitched her up was that good. Give me a break about how bad it was, they're explorers, for frack's sake.

Here's a review that destroys most of the bitching and whining about Prometheus: Death by a Thousand Nitpicks? Prometheus (2012) and the critical reception by John Kenneth Muir
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Old June 22 2013, 02:20 AM   #518
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

The whole idea of Ilia with her pheromones and her ability to ensnare men with her sexuality in a teenage boy's dream. You can't probably get more sexist than this particular fantasy of GR's .
IMO its only Kambatta's sweet-portrayal of llia that counteracts Ilia's sex goddess role.
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Old June 22 2013, 09:01 AM   #519
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's the common sense sci fi that was horrifically absent from Prometheus. That movie had so much potential but it fell into the same trap as NuTrek (only more so) of wanting it's principle characters to be shoe-horned in wherever possible. It's heroine was performing ludicrous feats of acrobatics after major surgery and the only character with anything resembling common sense for most of the movie forgot to run sideways at the end David was amazing though.
This was the first mission to an alien planet, and Shaw was doing what she did because the machine that stitched her up was that good. Give me a break about how bad it was, they're explorers, for frack's sake.

Here's a review that destroys most of the bitching and whining about Prometheus: Death by a Thousand Nitpicks? Prometheus (2012) and the critical reception by John Kenneth Muir
I think the review covers and accepts most of my criticisms pretty well but I'd go slightly further on a couple of points. It isn't breathability of the atmosphere that is the issue, it's whether there is anything dangerous living in it so while one person recklessly taking off his helmet is fine, everybody following suit until he has been medically checked out just because he didn't drop dead immediately was very silly. They had no external lab, decontamination procedure or quarantine procedure set up to even check if any of the crew were sick or if their suits were carrying anything dangerous on them - at least it was Ash's agenda that bypassed quarantine in Alien. Considering how expensive the mission was their scientific method was just terrible. The scientist that gets lost is the one who has just mapped the complex and I'm sorry but no way can I accept their behaviour when faced with a creature that looks exactly like snake - a dangerous predator on Earth - that was truly ridiculous. I don't object to Shaw running around while in pain (although the amount does get silly), I object to her jumping, climbing, and fighting in melee.

It wasn't that the movie was bad, it was just that Alien is so good that people had high expectations and sloppy story elements led to a lot of disappointment. Visually it was stunning and David was incredible but I couldn't wait for the other stupid characters to die and if you don't feel for the characters, the movie will fail to work on a very important level. Die Hard had a lot of very silly moments but at least I was rooting for John. With a few simple tweaks and alterations to a dozen lines of dialogue, it could have been much better.
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Old June 22 2013, 09:38 AM   #520
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

It's amusing to see you twist and turn to make STID seem like a sexist movie, but excuse the character-assassination scene in TMP.

In the end, I think you (and that includes everyone who thinks STID is sexist) are the sexist here, not Abrams and Co. Alice Eve knew what the script demanded her character to do on camera. She wasn't forced to be in that movie. She obviously didn't have a problem doing that scene.
The people who complain about the underwear-scene deny her her own good judgement and ability to decide what she wants to do.
Do you think if Alice Eve had thought that scene to be sexist she would have done it?
The woman stripping down had no problem doing so.
Unless you think you know better for her, all you "sexist"-screamers should just shut up and let women today do what they want to do.
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Old June 22 2013, 10:19 AM   #521
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Are we really getting so prudish that we aren't allowed to see good looking people wearing less clothes in movies these days? Do we have to go back to stealing Dad's Playboys from under his mattress?

People go to see SF movies for all kinds of reasons. Some want explosions, some want a philosophical story, some want humor, some want solid characterization - and some fans just like seeing great-looking, fit, healthy male and female bodies in very tight outfits or less.

TOS was infamous for all of the above. A movie based on TOS should reflect those elements.
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Old June 22 2013, 11:48 AM   #522
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Why don't we see Kirk on display in a thong or why wasn't Decker walking around in miniscule nightwear?
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Old June 22 2013, 12:48 PM   #523
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I have (of course) collected pics of all male nudity in Star Trek.

A small sample..








And on and on.. something is definitely missing from these shots.

Look how much T'Pol is shown, we never see this much male EVER:



Of course Trip does not drop his pants in this scene.
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Old June 22 2013, 04:29 PM   #524
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Why don't we see Kirk on display in a thong or why wasn't Decker walking around in miniscule nightwear?
Decker? Well, we did get to see the outline of his Decker Unit in one scene.

And, as originally scripted in "In Thy Image", Kirk and Alexandra (who evolved into Lori Ciana in the novelization) were supposed to swim naked together before Kirk is urgently recalled to Starfleet HQ.
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Old June 22 2013, 04:59 PM   #525
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Ah ok - apologies if I used confusing terminology again - I meant swapping gender rather than gender roles, obviously as an interesting mental exercise
There's nothing interesting about that mental exercise, especially since it would mean Captain Jenny Kirk is having a threesome with two male caitians around the time Pike calls her to the carpet.

And lest you pull the "double standard" card, I'll again remind you of the issue with recognizable gender roles in western society: men are expected to apply huge effort and creativity to acquire as many sexual partners as possible and women are expected to choose partners only from those who DISPLAY the most creativity and most effective effort. This is routed in evolution more firmly than it is in culture, and playing this trope in reverse -- with the woman in the sexually aggressive/pursuer role -- would be detrimental to the credibility of both the character and the writers who created her.


Which is why I mentioned the difference between gender and GENDER ROLES. You continue to be obsessed with numbers -- representation, quotas, percentages -- and are entirely indifferent to the nature of that representation, the implications of gender roles, the dynamics of the relationships between men and women in a working/personal relationship. You are, in other words, advocating the PRACTICE of affirmative action without having any concept whatsoever what affirmative action is supposed to accomplish.

It offends me when a qualified character gets bumped to make way for one of the big 3
Then you should probably stop watching Star Trek, because that particular practice has been the basic premise of almost every Trek episode in history. "We have a crew of 400 people on board, most of whom are qualified specialists in their field with years of experience, so of course the Captain, the first officer, the ship's doctor and two random security officers will be part of every away team."
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