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Old June 21 2013, 03:13 AM   #31
Sran
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Lance wrote: View Post
Worf is a pariah in both societies really. But more so the Klingons, ironically enough.
Not ironic at all. Klingons don't embrace outsiders as easily as humans, and Worf's definitely an outsider despite what he looks like. That he tends to view Klingon culture as some sort of unreachable star only complicates the situation, as his presence serves as a constant reminder of Klingon failings, something that a race valuing things like honor or victory above all else would certainly have a problem with.

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Old June 21 2013, 05:40 PM   #32
U.S.S.Unicorn
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

I don't think Klingons define honor radically different from humans neccessarily, but rather honor is a much more widespread idea in Klingon society. With possibly the entire race taking honor so seriously there are going to be many different interpretations.

For example, kindness is a good quality in our Western society today. Say your friend gets this really bad looking haircut that they think is the best thing since sliced bread. You could tell them that it looks bad so maybe they'll change it and not get made fun of or you could lie and say it looks great so they can be blissful. Either way could be interpreted as being kind. Or, you could just be an asshole who likes to make others feel bad and tell them it looks bad under the guise of "helping them out in the end".

The Klingons have gotten enough development to not be considered a planet of hats that all define honor the same way. So I'd say that for some Klingons honor is hooey and just an excuse to kill things but others take it honestly,just not always in the way a human would.
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Old June 21 2013, 09:14 PM   #33
Nightdiamond
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Lance wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I think the only reason Worf was the way he was, is that because he grew up away from any Klingons.
Lance wrote: View Post
I have sometimes wondered if Worf isn't the best representative of the Klingons, so much as he is representative of what they should be. As a Klingon who grew up "off world" he holds himself to a much higher ideal than those back on Qu'onos.
So Worf is the Superman of the Trek universe ?
I hadn't really thought about it that way. But yeah, it's not an unfair comparison. More accurately, I suppose, his upbringing has similarities to that of Clark Kent.

Worf is a pariah in both societies really. But more so the Klingons, ironically enough.
You could say Worf was something of an odd ball because He took everything in Klingon honor tradition seriously.

When he and Kehlar had sex in the holodeck, he instantly wanted to get married according to tradition. Kehlar got freaked out, and said it was what it was--great sex in a holodeck.

He didn't speak to his own son for 4 years, because he said he led a 'warrior's life' - even Martok thought something was wrong with that.

You could call Worf super conservative when it came to Klingon honor.

Other Klingons seemed to have had more liberal views when it came to sex, fighting and politics--but Worf was more rigid about it all.
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Old June 21 2013, 11:21 PM   #34
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

In Klingon society, honor is basically a political talking point, like 'Family values'. Politicians score points with their constituents by saying 'You are better than those people over there because you have honor and they don't', they idolize a fictitious past where everybody had honor, then they ignore it and do whatever they want. Just like family values.

There are a handful of people like Worf who are really principled and take it very seriously. But also like in the real world, people like that are also more flexible when they see somebody they care about is getting hurt.

Honor does require victory, but not all victory is honorable. A straight up military victory is honorable, but secretly poisoning somebody or using sneaky financial tricks is not.
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Old June 21 2013, 11:36 PM   #35
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
You could say Worf was something of an odd ball because He took everything in Klingon honor tradition seriously.
And probably because he learned about it from books.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:00 PM   #36
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Winning, by whatever means, is honorable. Losing is not. You can't really compare Klingon honor to human ethics.
I don't really see any difference at all.
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Old June 25 2013, 11:13 PM   #37
Sran
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
]I don't really see any difference at all.
I know you meant this as a joke, but it's ridiculous to assume that all humans behave the same way. Not everyone believes in a "win at all costs" way of life. That Klingons do proves only how single-minded and limited they are as a race, but Star Trek routinely portrays non-human races as being exactly that.

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Old June 26 2013, 01:28 AM   #38
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Sran wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
]I don't really see any difference at all.
I know you meant this as a joke, but it's ridiculous to assume that all humans behave the same way. Not everyone believes in a "win at all costs" way of life. That Klingons do proves only how single-minded and limited they are as a race, but Star Trek routinely portrays non-human races as being exactly that.

--Sran
The Klingons were fortunate that at least DS9 was able to show Martok, a Klingon who acted more along the lines of the spirit of Klingon Honour that Worf subscribed to, but even he slipped from that path (his treatment of Kor for example).

To an average Klingon though, Duty and Honour are merely what he uses to justify his actions, and he will if necessary twist the definition of Honour to meet his actions, rather than adjust his actions to meet the definition of Honour.

As Barbossa would say:-

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Old June 26 2013, 01:32 AM   #39
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
To an average Klingon though, Duty and Honour are merely what he uses to justify his actions, and he will if necessary twist the definition of Honour to meet his actions, rather than adjust his actions to meet the definition of Honour.
Well said.

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Old June 26 2013, 05:50 PM   #40
cannicks
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
Just curious what your opinion is over the course of the franchise. We've got Worf, obviously, but the majority of Klingons we meet are pretty much the embodiment of dishonorable. Less Miyamoto Musashi and more Genghis Khan crossed with Hell's Angels.

Is the whole thing just a con?
So? it makes them nuanced, and frankly not perfect. They're not Gods. Even the Q don't have a perfect society.
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Old June 26 2013, 05:53 PM   #41
cannicks
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

Sran wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I do believe Klingons take the idea of honor sincerely, but they define it radically different than humans do. Winning, by whatever means, is honorable. Losing is not. You can't really compare Klingon honor to human ethics.
Not sure I agree with this. I think they take the idea of honor seriously but apply it poorly in their everyday lives. Klingon honor seems to change depending on who's invoking it to justify a particular action.

--Sran
And? Who says Klingons need to be perfect?

You?
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Old June 26 2013, 05:55 PM   #42
cannicks
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

U.S.S.Unicorn wrote: View Post
I don't think Klingons define honor radically different from humans neccessarily, but rather honor is a much more widespread idea in Klingon society. With possibly the entire race taking honor so seriously there are going to be many different interpretations.

For example, kindness is a good quality in our Western society today. Say your friend gets this really bad looking haircut that they think is the best thing since sliced bread. You could tell them that it looks bad so maybe they'll change it and not get made fun of or you could lie and say it looks great so they can be blissful. Either way could be interpreted as being kind. Or, you could just be an asshole who likes to make others feel bad and tell them it looks bad under the guise of "helping them out in the end".

The Klingons have gotten enough development to not be considered a planet of hats that all define honor the same way. So I'd say that for some Klingons honor is hooey and just an excuse to kill things but others take it honestly,just not always in the way a human would.
And? Klingons are individuals.
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Old June 26 2013, 06:19 PM   #43
Sran
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

cannicks wrote: View Post
And? Who says Klingons need to be perfect?

You?
No one's saying that at all. My point is that most of the Klingons in Star Trek are depicted as people who change the definition of honor to fit their actions rather than changing their actions to fit with an accepted standard of honorable behavior. They treat honor like an excuse to justify poor behavior instead of something to aspire to as a means of self-improvement.

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Old June 26 2013, 06:22 PM   #44
Charles Phipps
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
The Klingons were fortunate that at least DS9 was able to show Martok, a Klingon who acted more along the lines of the spirit of Klingon Honour that Worf subscribed to, but even he slipped from that path (his treatment of Kor for example).
I dunno, I'm pretty sure Martok would have been justified by Klingon honor in stabbing the guy to death--let alone not having him on his ship.
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Old June 26 2013, 06:22 PM   #45
Sran
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Re: Is Klingon honor a bunch of hooey?

cannicks wrote: View Post
And? Klingons are individuals.
And because they're individuals, they should each be held responsible for their actions. If a Klingon behaves dishonorably, he should be punished. That he defines honor differently doesn't matter, as a concept that's such an important part of Klingon society shouldn't be treated like it's in the eye of the beholder.

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