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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 20 2013, 09:48 AM   #76
GalaxyX
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Re: Generations was...

After all, this was in a time of peaceful exploration, before writers like Ron Moore started in with their imperfect character nonsense, and so-called "drama".
Yeah I'm so sick of hearing their complaints about being unable to write "drama". When they were given full ability to do what they wanted, we got the Star Trek soap opera "Deep Space 9".

I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk. You do not kill Living Legends. All of my respect for him has drained away because he made himself a part of that idiocy. I've grown so cold about this I no longer see the scene as the death of Captain Kirk, it's now the symbolic death of my respect and admiration for Shatner.
I don't know if I blame Shatner. Perhaps he felt that he had to agree to the role or he wouldn't have been given the part? He seemed to quickly revive the character in his books again (not that it means anything on-screen). I do agree if he didn't want the character to die, he should have stood his ground on that.

Concerning the Ent. E, my liking of the D waned greatly after the premier of the E. I began wishing the design of E had been used for the D because it's such a logical evolutionary extension of the TMP/1701-A refit, imo.
I could live with it if it weren't for those hideous nacelles. Dear God what were they thinking?
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Old June 20 2013, 04:00 PM   #77
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Re: Generations was...

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Generations is a Star Trek Movie. It has all the elements of Star Trek. The ship, the crew, special effects, etc. etc. etc.

Star Trek is like pizza. When it's good, it's really good. When it's bad, it's still pretty good.

I don't really notice movie soundtracks. Funny, as a musician you'd think I'd hone in on that. But not so much.

Perhaps one of the distictins between a good musical score and a bad one is that you don't notice it when it's good.
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Old June 20 2013, 08:42 PM   #78
The Keeper
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Re: Generations was...

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk. You do not kill Living Legends. All of my respect for him has drained away because he made himself a part of that idiocy. I've grown so cold about this I no longer see the scene as the death of Captain Kirk, it's now the symbolic death of my respect and admiration for Shatner.
I don't know if I blame Shatner. Perhaps he felt that he had to agree to the role or he wouldn't have been given the part? He seemed to quickly revive the character in his books again (not that it means anything on-screen). I do agree if he didn't want the character to die, he should have stood his ground on that.
That's it, I wish he would not have agreed to the part, kept forcing rewrite's until they got to a version which didn't include the death of Kirk.

Concerning the Ent. E, my liking of the D waned greatly after the premier of the E. I began wishing the design of E had been used for the D because it's such a logical evolutionary extension of the TMP/1701-A refit, imo.
I could live with it if it weren't for those hideous nacelles. Dear God what were they thinking?
Agreed, the Ent. E nacelle design was a radical step backwards. The refit nacelles were also hideous. Took me years to acknowledge the refit even had nacelles attached!
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Old June 21 2013, 11:10 AM   #79
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Re: Generations was...

The Keeper wrote: View Post
I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk. You do not kill Living Legends.
Why not?
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Old June 21 2013, 11:46 AM   #80
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Re: Generations was...

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk.
I don't know if I blame Shatner. Perhaps he felt that he had to agree to the role or he wouldn't have been given the part?
To be fair, while he still died, the original scripted death of Kirk was "better." Shatner's decision to do the movie would have been at least in part based upon that script, and not on the script they use for the re-shoot of the death scene days after the original scene was filmed.

Soren's death was also much more satisfying in the original script (Picard shoots him in the stomach with his own gun).

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Old June 21 2013, 08:45 PM   #81
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Re: Generations was...

Speaking as someone who is primarily a TOS fan and a huge fan of Cpt Kirk, I had no problem with them portraying Kirk's death. It was the execution (pun intended) that left me wanting.
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Old June 22 2013, 01:59 AM   #82
Kevman7987
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Re: Generations was...

The only real dissatisfaction I hold with Generations is the lame way Kirk died.

In my opinion it would have been more Kirk-like had he been killed by sacrificing himself during hand-to-hand combat with Soren. The two of them going off of a cliff Sherlock Holmes vs. Moriarity style or something.

Or something more awesome that ends with Kirk's survival; all of the sudden after a fist-fight, Soren is unsteady and Kirk yanks him over to himself (GET OVER HERE) and then (FINISH HIM) Kirk incinerates him with fire breath (FATALITY).

I think we can all agree the MORTAL KOMBAT ending is a lot more satisfying.
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Old June 22 2013, 02:33 AM   #83
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Re: Generations was...

Hmmm... "I HAVE HAD... ENOUGH OF... YOU!" WHAM!
Flawless victory.
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Old June 23 2013, 05:37 PM   #84
The Keeper
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Re: Generations was...

Stoo wrote: View Post
The Keeper wrote: View Post
I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk. You do not kill Living Legends.
Why not?
Okay, clearly they can and did kill him but I'd rather they hadn't.

The death of Kirk was canonized onscreen so that is it, he is dead - period. That fact makes him unique among all TOS players, (congratulations ) We, thankfully, cannot say that about anyone else.

Even Scotty and McCoy, despite the death of the actors playing them are still opened ended characters because those characters never got killed and they [probably, hopefully] never will. They have, in a sense, achieved immortality.

I just wish the same could be said for Captain Kirk.
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Old June 24 2013, 07:50 AM   #85
GalaxyX
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Re: Generations was...

The Keeper wrote: View Post
Stoo wrote: View Post
The Keeper wrote: View Post
I have one issue with Generations; William Shatner agreed to the death of Captain Kirk. You do not kill Living Legends.
Why not?
Okay, clearly they can and did kill him but I'd rather they hadn't.

The death of Kirk was canonized onscreen so that is it, he is dead - period. That fact makes him unique among all TOS players, (congratulations ) We, thankfully, cannot say that about anyone else.

Even Scotty and McCoy, despite the death of the actors playing them are still opened ended characters because those characters never got killed and they [probably, hopefully] never will. They have, in a sense, achieved immortality.

I just wish the same could be said for Captain Kirk.
I tend to agree with this.

I think in a way, we like our fictional characters to have an air of immortality, so that there is always a chance they can show up later on.

On Screen deaths of beloved characters are simply copouts from the writers to elicit emotions only for the sake of emotions.

I personally hate tragic endings. I don't like watching movies that end tragic and depressing.

Generations ended horribly tragic. So did Nemesis.

Data finding his cat is a lame attempt at some levity after the completely unnecessary death of Kirk.

I remember I was about 16 when I saw the movie the first time. I saw it with my dad (huge TOS and Captain Kirk fan) and my brother (who was 12 at the time).

When Kirk died, my brother started crying, and my dad looked at me and said "What the fuck was that?"

I felt like I just got punched in the stomach, and I'm not even a huge Kirk fan!

So yeah, Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, Ron Moore, Paramount, and whoever else was involved in such cow shit of a story:

FUCK YOU! Fucking assholes!

But at least you lame pieces of shit finally got booted after you put the 2nd nail in the coffin of TNG with that lame Data death (Which WAS my favorite character! assholes!! )

I feel bad for William Shatner. He wanted a role in the new Trek films and JJ Abrams so far hasn't given him a chance.

I would.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:45 PM   #86
Stoo
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Re: Generations was...

The Keeper wrote: View Post
The death of Kirk was canonized onscreen so that is it, he is dead - period. That fact makes him unique among all TOS players, (congratulations ) We, thankfully, cannot say that about anyone else.
Well, everyone dies. I think by trying to avoid that, by wishing for Kirk and co to be eternal, you're actually arguing for the exact opposite of Generations' message.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:20 PM   #87
Lance
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Re: Generations was...

Stoo wrote: View Post
Well, everyone dies. I think by trying to avoid that, by wishing for Kirk and co to be eternal, you're actually arguing for the exact opposite of Generations' message.
Even Generations itself doesn't know what Generations' message actually is. Especially in regards to what it is that Kirk wants most from life/death/retirement. That one seems to change from scene to scene. Knowing Kirk it sure as hell ain't making eggs in a log cabin.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:11 PM   #88
Andymator
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Re: Generations was...

Lance wrote: View Post
Even Generations itself doesn't know what Generations' message actually is. Especially in regards to what it is that Kirk wants most from life/death/retirement. That one seems to change from scene to scene. Knowing Kirk it sure as hell ain't making eggs in a log cabin.
Oh come on, "Generations" conveys it's message just fine. To paraphrase;

Everything comes to an end, don't dwell on it and enjoy the hand you're dealt while you've got it.

It's not some obscure hidden meaning, it's blatantly spelled out for the less astute of us at the end of the movie. Even 12 year old me could decipher that when I first saw it.

Within the context of the movie nobody cares about Kirk. He's not the protagonist, and Star Trek fans can't seem to get past that. The movie is about Picard, Kirk was only present to act as the wise old sage who can help Picard learn his lesson of the day.

There are real criticisms to be leveled at Generations, but that's not one of them.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:35 PM   #89
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Re: Generations was...

I always liked Generations, it does have it's problems though.

1. The Uniforms keep changing

2. The Enterprise D was destroyed due to monumental incompetence

3. Kirks death was ill-fitting

4. Picard not going back to 10 forward from the nexus made no sense

Those are the main problems, but otherwise I enjoyed it. Nowhere near as unforgivable as Insurrection imo.
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Old June 24 2013, 05:10 PM   #90
Andymator
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Re: Generations was...

Infern0 wrote: View Post
I always liked Generations, it does have it's problems though.

1. The Uniforms keep changing

2. The Enterprise D was destroyed due to monumental incompetence

3. Kirks death was ill-fitting

4. Picard not going back to 10 forward from the nexus made no sense

Those are the main problems, but otherwise I enjoyed it. Nowhere near as unforgivable as Insurrection imo.
You see, those are all of the things I keep hearing about from Star Trek fans, and I just don't see it.

The problems with "Generations" as I see it are:

1) Data's story is poorly structured and doesn't dovetail with Picard's elegantly. It does provide some comic relief, but maybe takes it a bit too far at inappropriate times in the story structure.

- This one's a challenge to fix, because it really just takes some good writing. You've got to find a way to both re-structure Data's story so it doesn't just fall off the map at the end of act two, and have it tie into Picard's story at the same time.

2) The story loses a whole lot of momentum and deflates once Picard enters the nexus. It was epic up until that point, and then it just lost it.

- Another difficult thing to fix. Maybe adding more suspense and having the viewer wonder what was actually happening. Play up the the emotional content of Having his brother and nephew alive again, and him having to struggle to give it up. It basically just needs a re-working.

3) Three old men (Picard, Shatner, and McDowell) having a physical showdown for the climax borders on silly.

- I can buy Picard in a physical confrontation. You need Kirk there as a demand of the studio. The only way out of this is recasting McDowell, Which would suck because his over the top theatrics really made this movie fun. You would need to find a younger more physical actor who ALSO has the ability to ham it up and chew the scenery. That's a difficult task. I could also see this not being a problem for some people, it's pretty subjective.

With all that said Generations was still a good fun movie, and considering the box that the team had to work in it turned out great.
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