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Old June 10 2013, 07:05 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Britain didn't "legitimately" hold India for a couple centuries?

Might equals right.
False.

Unless you're a character on the Game of Thrones, a foreign power coming and forcing their will on a local population is a bad thing.

Then again, I'm not convinced you actually believe the things you say, because you have a tendency to push buttons for the sake of it.
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Old June 10 2013, 07:29 AM   #32
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Might equals righteousness?

Is that better?

Was Queen Victoria the Empress of India an asshole or a liar?

As your current theory stands, the Native Americans could ask all non Native Americans to leave North America, so that they could have their home back, and good manners would force all non Native Americans to eject themselves off the continent.

That would be pleasant and hilarious, but it's not going to happen without some massive cultural shift on par with a literal apocalypse.
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Old June 18 2013, 11:02 AM   #33
doubleohfive
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

teacake wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Folks just want to blame Janeway for everything at every chance they get.
Not me.
Nor I.

Janeway's decision is made quite clear as are her motivations for said decision.
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Old June 20 2013, 06:55 PM   #34
bbjeg
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Folks just want to blame Janeway for everything at every chance they get.
Not me.
Nor I.

Janeway's decision is made quite clear as are her motivations for said decision.
That's the issue though. Janeway blamed herself but there were so many factors that were dismissed in the series. Chakotay never says "We could have made it back if I waited for that Kazon battleship to be further away from that station before crashing my ship into it.", nor did B'elanna say something like "I shouldn't have engaged that Cardassian ship then plot that course into the Badlands."
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Old June 20 2013, 09:07 PM   #35
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

I suppose it is a bit of a missed opportunity that we never got a good "It's a Wonderful Life" episode showing what would happen if Our Heroes hadn't been yanked into the DQ.

I could easily see such an episode being a two-parter.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:58 PM   #36
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Even if one were to grant that her decision to destroy the array got them stranded there, there were plenty of subsequent opportunities to get her crew home.

I would contend that, more than one poor decision, it was her refusal to accept other offers that resulted in them being stuck in the Delta Quadrant for as long as they did.

If she just gave Q that damn baby he wanted, or returned that suicidal Q to the continuum for punishment, he could have snapped them all back home.

She could have, at the very least, asked if there was some kind of arrangement they could have made. It's just plain negligent on her part not to at least ask.
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Old June 20 2013, 10:13 PM   #37
Kevman7987
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I suppose it is a bit of a missed opportunity that we never got a good "It's a Wonderful Life" episode showing what would happen if Our Heroes hadn't been yanked into the DQ.

I could easily see such an episode being a two-parter.
That would have made for a good episode if written well. I get the feeling they just would have had most of the characters get killed by the Dominion War though.
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Old June 21 2013, 04:34 AM   #38
Anwar
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

QuarkforNagus wrote: View Post
Even if one were to grant that her decision to destroy the array got them stranded there, there were plenty of subsequent opportunities to get her crew home.

I would contend that, more than one poor decision, it was her refusal to accept other offers that resulted in them being stuck in the Delta Quadrant for as long as they did.

If she just gave Q that damn baby he wanted, or returned that suicidal Q to the continuum for punishment, he could have snapped them all back home.

She could have, at the very least, asked if there was some kind of arrangement they could have made. It's just plain negligent on her part not to at least ask.
All their attempts to get home faster had to fail, that's the "Gilligan Syndrome" the show suffered from.
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Old June 21 2013, 06:19 AM   #39
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Might equals righteousness?

Is that better?

Was Queen Victoria the Empress of India an asshole or a liar?

As your current theory stands, the Native Americans could ask all non Native Americans to leave North America, so that they could have their home back, and good manners would force all non Native Americans to eject themselves off the continent.

That would be pleasant and hilarious, but it's not going to happen without some massive cultural shift on par with a literal apocalypse.
A dictator.

Your analogy is ridiculous. No government has the right to take away the individual freedoms of any person, regardless of ethnicity or whether your ancestors 500 years ago were born there or not.

Supreme executive powah derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical military entitlement. If you need to threaten a populace with violence and imprisonment to stay in power, you do not deserve that power. If you treat one group of people as automatically inferior to another group of people based solely on birth, you are a dictator.
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Old June 21 2013, 07:42 AM   #40
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

It's like you haven't been paying attention to history.

Every leader there has ever been has been a dictator in someone's eyes and Utopia, which is what you're talking about, does not exist. What a government shouldn't do has nothing to do with what a government has to do.

Considering your idealism, it seems impossible for you not to raise arms against your own government immediately if you are a truly moral person, no matter where in the world you are living, if theses bodies do not rise to your impossible standards.
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Old June 21 2013, 07:47 AM   #41
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

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Old June 21 2013, 10:49 AM   #42
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The Kazon mothership would have destroyed Voyager had Chakotay not taken action, with no weapons array or backup close by they were out of options.

Janeway pleaded with the Caretaker to send them home, though knowing what was coming and the damage it caused first time they could have reinforced the ship for the journey home and ensured the crews were kept safe.

It was her decision to destroy the Array (with weapons that were magically back online), but it would have been destroyed even without the Kazon collision. Taking the action she did was a huge violation of the Prime Directive, but when weighing up the lives of 150-ish with thousands (if not millions) she could have been said to have done the most compassionate thing.

Getting Voyager trapped in the DQ is no one's fault, but rather a random convergence of incidents that had only a finite number of outcomes, none of which were exactly very favourable.

I get why she blames herself at times though, as it is something that she could feel guilty about, even though she did it for good reasons.
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Old June 21 2013, 11:40 AM   #43
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Do I have to watch the pilot again?

From memory...

The initial attack force was a City Ship and two Shuttles.

Chokotay destroyed the city ship, at the expense of the Val Jean.

All Voyager had to fight Two shuttles.

Janeway was not afraid of the two shuttles, Caretaker had convinced her that the Kazon were going to steal the Ocampa's water. Just listen to that. Not kill, not eat, not enslave... But "steal their water". The Kazon had no interest in the Ocampa whatsoever other than their water WHICH WAS ONLY VALUABLE ON OCAMPA and would have only been used in the refinery on Ocampa.

She was afraid of reinforcements.

Because this was Kazon space where the Kazon live, so of course they could get 10 more city ships there in under an hour. Ignorant of truefacts Janeway was right to be paranoid because of baseless assumptions.

But from what we know about the kazon, reinforcements from their own sect or another sect would just lead to infighting and powershifts since weakness is not tolerated.

What you're all still forgetting is that the array is a weapon.

It had disruptors that could target the Ocampan city from a couple light years away, and he could have just as easily chosen to target the Kazon living on Ocampa instead, but Caretaker is a deush. Meanwhile they could use the tractor beam that dragged them from the Alpha quadrant to crush their enemies. Safely plotting a course home may take "many hours" but I think crushing a Kazon City Ship is just a matter of randomly thumping the control panels with abandon.

Besides those city ships are cities. 22 times the mass of Voyager means that any one of them is containing 10's of thousands of civilians, whatever mutual defence pacts they have in effect, it can't be worth losing another City ship over, unless your next step was to open fire on Jabin, take the array, and take Ocampa.
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Old June 25 2013, 08:28 PM   #44
Turd Ferguson
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

Really, why couldn't Janeway have used the displacement wave to send the Array back to the Alpha Quadrant with them? The displacement wave obviously didn't originate from any part of the Array, or else there would have been 70,000 light years worth of planets, debris and ships littered around the Array from the origin point to its interception with Voyager in the Badlands. Just set the thing to activate a wave 1,000 kilometers off to the side of the Array so that it picks up said Array and Voyager, then voila! No Prime Directive violations, no Kazon overtaking the Array, and Voyager's back in the Alpha Quadrant with the Maquis getting prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Old June 25 2013, 09:25 PM   #45
Guy Gardener
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Re: Was it really Janeways fault they got stuck there?

The displacement wave was part of the super tractor beam which Tuvok found the controls to on the array and figured out how to work it in a matter of seconds. The displacement wave was probably a secondary effect or a scanning system so that Caretaker knew what he was grabbing, since Voyager was dragged to the DQ trillions and trillions of times faster than the wave was moving which Voyager's crew could see with their naked eye.

If the super tractor beam was not on the Array, then either either our heroes are morons or they would have gone home.

Besides the "displacement wave/super" tractor beam was discriminate becuase when it took Chakotay, it didn't take the Cardassians who were right beside the Val Jean when the Cardassian's were nabbed.
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