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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 20 2013, 08:05 PM   #451
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
If the gender roles were completely flipped in Trek so that we have only one black dude and a blond scientist among the main cast I wonder how people would react to the gender balance?
If the movies were otherwise as entertaining as they were? Pretty much exactly the way I've reacted to the actual films. I might have briefly wondered why the wholesale switch, but it would have been a passing thought, nothing more (same as when Starbuck and Boomer were women in the BSG reboot or having Joan instead of John Watson on Elementary).
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Old June 20 2013, 08:50 PM   #452
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

beamMe wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
As you know, I have the same issue with Chekov, as portrayed, being assigned as security chief in TMP for similar reasons.
And with Rand as the transporter chief, too?
Rand is slightly different because we never really got to see much of a skill set beyond the fact that she recognised a description of earth before seeing it, and she was able to man the helm in an emergency, which all crew should be able to do. Same with operating a transporter or the communications console really. I feel pretty much the same with giving Uhura combat skills in STiD - all officers should have that kind of training. Going beyond that and having her become an expert engineer might have sat less well but even so

What qualities does Chekov have to be chief of security - he was naive, scientifically trained, and he got beat up pretty much every time he ever got into a fight. Mind you, so did Worf...
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Old June 20 2013, 08:53 PM   #453
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post

What qualifications does Chekov have to be chief of security - he was naive, scientifically trained, and he got beat up pretty much every time he ever got into a fight.
And he also had a two-and-a-half year gap that we simply don't know what he was doing. So for all we know, he decided he wanted to be in Security and switched tracks. Much like Sulu being a blue-shirt in Where No Man... then moving to the helm in the series proper.
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Old June 20 2013, 08:54 PM   #454
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I have the solution to the problem though.
Men in one ship. Women in another.
Then there'll be no yucky kissing or holding hands or carrying on in either ship. A lot more work will be done. And the Federation will be a lot better off
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
I don't know what's funnier (or more sad). That you took CommishSleer's obvious sarcastic joke as a serious solution, or that you think bringing back segregation 300 years in the future is a positive response to alleged sexism in JJTrek, and not unbelievably more sexist itself.

Next up on Terrible Problem Solving Theater, we fix unequal pay for women by bringing back indentured servitude, and we attempt to remove a bee hive with a fifty kiloton thermonuclear warhead.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I don't know how many times I can say I wasn't that bothered by it. Yes it was gratuitous, yes it was blatant titillation but meh.
Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. Continuing to say the scene was "blatant" and "gratuitous" and not acknowledging that other levels of intent to the scene exist IS THE PROBLEM. Are you not aware of what "gratuitous" means?

Even Game of Thrones, which is set in an incredibly sexist, quasi-medieval setting has a far better ratio of men to women than Trek.

I still think that, given the limits of its setting, GoT has a much better approach to women than Trek currently does.
Thank you for proving the point that the quality of the depiction of most of the women is not what matters to you, only the numbers. There are certainly many strong female characters in GoT, but there are many more who are just treated horribly (though to be fair, so are many men). Now, given the medieval setting (even in a fictional universe), that is somewhat to be expected, because women weren't treated well then to say the least, but to try and say it depicts women in a better light than Star Trek as a franchise does is astonishing in its shortsightedness to me.

I love Game of Thrones, don't get me wrong, but that assertion is just... wow. Completely off the wall. I'll try and remember how progressive the show is the next time Joffrey asks a couple of female prostitutes to get naked, beat one to a pulp with a wooden club, and then later crossbows the other in the crotch and breasts. I guess we can consider the glass ceiling of King's Landing's power hierarchy shattered (and then the shards are used to mutilate female prostitutes).

Also, there are women all over the place on the Enterprise, especially on the bridge (but also in the brig, sickbay, and engineering). They're not all main characters, because the main characters are already established from TOS, but there are lots of woman present as officers among the crew. I would say the male/female ratio (since that's all you seem to care about) is equivalent to GoT in that respect.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - an officer has to be able to do the job of an officer. How can he give orders if he has no way to communicate? My issue is with the way Keenser is portrayed as a joke alien. If he were portrayed in a way that demonstrated he could do the job, I'd be fine. He doesn't even use a universal translator.
Besides the fact that --as mentioned-- he's spoken English dialogue in the films, we have Scotty mention that he talks too much. Now, it could have been a sarcastic quip about how he doesn't talk that much (or he does and it all just happens offscreen), but it at least acknowledges that he does talk sometimes. I don't recall the actual line in ST09 that well.

And how do you know he doesn't use a universal translator? What do the portable UTs even look like in this universe? We haven't seen one yet. It's most likely built into the communicators, but it could also be sewn into micro-circuitry inside their uniforms or built into the corridors of ships and stations for all we know.

Rather than saying, he is, therefore he does, I'm interested to know what evidence we can see on screen to support the notion that Keenser would make a good assistant chief engineer (i.e. a subjective opinion based on the visual evidence).
All you need to know is that Scotty, who won't let unchecked weapons on his ship because of how they might negatively interact with his engines, who is willing to quit over his convictions and won't be forced into doing something he thinks is wrong or unsafe, and who has a strong code of ethics, trusts Keenser to work on the engines implicitly. That's all the evidence you really need or can reasonably expect about a secondary to a secondary character in four hours of screentime.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:01 PM   #455
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
Yeah, I took a look at that.

I'll bet J.J. is shakin'.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:04 PM   #456
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
mos6507 wrote: View Post
Which is the exact premise of my Fem Trekz show, which is to some degree a reaction against the unprofessional animal-house atmosphere established in JJ Trek.
Yeah, I took a look at that.

I'll bet J.J. is shakin'.
Did you notice how 'Trekz' is spelled with a 'Z'? That's how we know its serious and hip all at the same time.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:18 PM   #457
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. Continuing to say the scene was "blatant" and "gratuitous" and not acknowledging that other levels of intent to the scene exist IS THE PROBLEM. Are you not aware of what "gratuitous" means?
I am. Just as you are you are aware that I have acknowledged the other levels of the scene and that I have expressly stated that it was only the shot of Carol in her undies that was gratuitous. All the other levels of the scene could have worked just like Raiders of the Lost Ark, without flashing lots of skin and cleaveage on screen.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
There are certainly many strong female characters in GoT, but there are many more who are just treated horribly (though to be fair, so are many men). Now, given the medieval setting (even in a fictional universe), that is somewhat to be expected, because women weren't treated well then to say the least, but to try and say it depicts women in a better light than Star Trek as a franchise does is astonishing in its shortsightedness to me.
This makes my point for me. I did not mean to say that GoT depicts women in a better light - the nature of the setting precludes that. What I said is that you get a lot of women in diverse roles. You also get men in diverse roles. You get lots of men AND women in diverse roles. The nature of the Trek setting does not preclude showing women in a better light, it simply isn't implemented. With more women, we should see women in diverse roles. QED.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Also, there are women all over the place on the Enterprise, especially on the bridge (but also in the brig, sickbay, and engineering).
Name six of them.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Lol - an officer has to be able to do the job of an officer. How can he give orders if he has no way to communicate? My issue is with the way Keenser is portrayed as a joke alien. If he were portrayed in a way that demonstrated he could do the job, I'd be fine. He doesn't even use a universal translator.
Besides the fact that --as mentioned-- he's spoken English dialogue in the films, we have Scotty mention that he talks too much.

All you need to know is that Scotty... trusts Keenser to work on the engines implicitly. That's all the evidence you really need or can reasonably expect about a secondary to a secondary character in four hours of screentime.
Lol - so what you are saying is that there is no actual evidence that he would make a good officer, we just have to assume that he is because he's there. That's what I said to start with but my issue is that there is no evidence while you are happy to assume that if he's there he deserves to be there.

Neither one of us is right or wrong but the upshot is that there is no evidence to support that Lt Keenser is a great chief beyond the fact that he must be because he is.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:20 PM   #458
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...bringing back segregation 300 years in the future is a positive response to alleged sexism in JJTrek, and not unbelievably more sexist itself.
Of course the solution is ridiculous! It's supposed to be satirical humor, not my personal opinion of utopia. In other words, the fact that all-female or all-male crews doesn't solve the underlying problems between men and woman is the moral of the story. Victorian-style collective punishment isn't the solution. The solution is for both sexes to, well, grow up and learn the value of self-restraint and personal responsibility. That's NOT what JJ Trek presents, though. It presents a military organization that feels more like the set of a reality show.

The worst you could say about Checkov filling in for Scotty is that it was done in a way to a sort of Police-Academy-style comedy-of-errors, the equivalent of Scotty being sent through the brewery tubes, and similar in tone to Scotty hitting his beam in Trek V which was seen (by those with better taste) as being groan-incuding. We're supposed to enjoy seeing an underage crew bumble their way through, hence the Enterprise going underwater and Scotty commenting on how stupid an idea that was. It's funny, you see? They're young, right? So they don't know any better! Who cares about plausibility when you just want to provide a couple hours of light diversion?

But back to gender... In JJ Trek, aside from Pike's dressing down, Kirk being an egotistical jerk is presented as a way for him to be seen as hip or likable to teens and 20 somethings, just as hip hop songs glorify getting rich and carving notches on bed-posts. Same deal with Zoe Saldana's Uhura flagrantly showing her affections or having lover's quarrels for Spock in a serious "workplace" scenario where lives could be on the line. There seems to be no interest in a Horatio Hornbloweresque style Starfleet where Kirk and company exit the academy as a marine might exit West Point. People would rather see these characters let their hair down and treat the Enterprise like a frat-house.

The scene with Alice Eve, IMHO, spawns out of that attitude.

I'm sure you'll continue to accuse me of misreading it, but to me it's patently obvious. We're supposed to chuckle over Kirk getting caught like a kid with his hand in the cookie-jar, just as we're supposed to chuckle over Kirk's joke out of the turbolift quipping about Spock and Uhura fighting. In other words, everything in Into Darkness is actually just a fun little Indiana Jones style 'romp'. That's why Kirk had to come back to life so quickly after dying. The gravitas is all phoney and all loose ends have to be tied up in time for supper.

JJ Trek really has nothing at all to say, because any sort of message there is delivered without any real depth, sincerity, or attention to story detail. It just wants to provide empty calories, style as a substitute for substance, and the fact that it's been accepted points to audiences preferring not to think about anything deeper than how sexy Alice Eve looks in black lingere.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:22 PM   #459
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

mos6507 wrote: View Post
In other words, everything in Into Darkness is actually just a fun little Indiana Jones style 'romp'.
I'm still wondering why exactly this is a problem?
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Old June 20 2013, 09:26 PM   #460
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Because it isn't true to the Roddenberry vision (patent pending), of course. Nor does it satisfy the self-appointed guardians of propriety who sit on The Committee for the Way Things Ought to Be (also patent pending). Why do you ask?
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Old June 20 2013, 09:44 PM   #461
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

I suppose I'm going to have to pair "What was Roddenberry's vision?" with "What is real Star Trek?"

And, yes, I'm going to keep asking until I get a definitive answer.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:51 PM   #462
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
I suppose I'm going to have to pair "What was Roddenberry's vision?" with "What is real Star Trek?"

And, yes, I'm going to keep asking until I get a definitive answer.
No true Star Trek fan would do such a thing.
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Old June 20 2013, 11:19 PM   #463
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Let's face it, "True Trek Fans" are just "Rick Bermanites"...

... and they are NOT pleased...
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Old June 20 2013, 11:21 PM   #464
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
I suppose I'm going to have to pair "What was Roddenberry's vision?" with "What is real Star Trek?"

And, yes, I'm going to keep asking until I get a definitive answer.
Good luck. Because they don't know the answer to either question. Hell, they can't even answer why a Star Trek movie being a "fun romp" is a bad thing.
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Old June 21 2013, 12:08 AM   #465
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Just as you are you are aware that I have acknowledged the other levels of the scene and that I have expressly stated that it was only the shot of Carol in her undies that was gratuitous. All the other levels of the scene could have worked just like Raiders of the Lost Ark, without flashing lots of skin and cleaveage on screen.
I guess my perspective must be skewed living so close to the beach and seeing women in bikinis walking down the street all the time, because that scene did not stick out as some excessive display of skin and cleavage to me at all. It was really tame. I mean, okay for TV before the safe harbor/watershed now tame. I mean, okay for TV after the safe harbor/watershed even in the 60s tame. Katy Perry showed as much cleavage on Sesame Street (also something which was blown way out of proportion).

Sure, the scene could have been done with her back to the camera, but I don't even understand the need. OMG, women have breasts. Film at eleven. Making her turn her back to not show her shameful covered breasts sounds like something out of the Taliban. People are acting like this is an episode of I Love Lucy and not a film shot in 2013 based on a TV show from the 60s that regularly showed more skin than this way back then. William Ware Theiss would be lynched by modern fans if this thread is any indication.

What I said is that you get a lot of women in diverse roles. You also get men in diverse roles. You get lots of men AND women in diverse roles. The nature of the Trek setting does not preclude showing women in a better light, it simply isn't implemented. With more women, we should see women in diverse roles.
There are women in diverse roles in ST09 and STiD. There are several bridge officers, women working in engineering, women as medical staff in sickbay, women security officers guarding the brig, women flag officers/captains/XOs at the Starfleet briefing, Uhura as the communications officer/linguistics specialist, Marcus as a science officer/weapons specialist...

Name six of them.
Nyota Uhura - Communications Officer/Linguist
Carol Marcus - Science Officer/Weapons Specialist
Hannity - Operations Officer
Darwin - Navigator
Madeline - Science Officer
Christine Chapel - Nurse
Unknown Female Bridge Officer (White Hair) - Possibly meant to be Ensign Brackett, since the credits writers or IMDb wrongly assigned that name to the previously named (in ST09) Hannity, who was also in STiD



It's also possible that Gaila was assigned to the Enterprise as a computer specialist, given her particular excitement with her ship assignment (which would especially make sense if she was assigned aboard the new flagship everyone wanted to serve on) and Kirk's confusion of another redheaded Orion Enterprise crew member with her in a deleted scene, which could imply that he knew she was aboard (but that's speculative).

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
All you need to know is that Scotty... trusts Keenser to work on the engines implicitly. That's all the evidence you really need or can reasonably expect about a secondary to a secondary character in four hours of screentime.
Lol - so what you are saying is that there is no actual evidence that he would make a good officer, we just have to assume that he is because he's there. That's what I said to start with but my issue is that there is no evidence while you are happy to assume that if he's there he deserves to be there.
Lol, no, like I said, lol, given his track record and depiction onscreen, lol, Scotty is the evidence of Keenser's competence, lol. Scotty would not allow someone who could not perform the job superbly and be safe around his engines, period. Nor would Keenser be his best friend and confidant if Scotty couldn't talk shop with him.

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...bringing back segregation 300 years in the future is a positive response to alleged sexism in JJTrek, and not unbelievably more sexist itself.
Of course the solution is ridiculous! It's supposed to be satirical humor, not my personal opinion of utopia. In other words, the fact that all-female or all-male crews doesn't solve the underlying problems between men and woman is the moral of the story.
You could have explained that. I clicked through and watched a couple of the videos, and all I saw was a CGI Duplo character singing a Celine Dion style theme song while floating through space, and some other CGI Duplo bridge crew. It didn't tell me much of anything about the setting or plot.

But back to gender... In JJ Trek, aside from Pike's dressing down, Kirk being an egotistical jerk is presented as a way for him to be seen as hip or likable to teens and 20 somethings.
Except for how absolutely nothing works out right for him in this film. He gets demoted (and kicked off his ship and sent back to the Academy before the crisis happens). He gets rebuffed by Carol. He gets told by Spock that his vengeful attitude is wrong and against Starfleet ethics. He loses his chief engineer. He apologizes to his crew for getting their asses handed to them by the Vengeance. He's outsmarted by Khan (Spock's the one who saves the day). His ship is crippled and falls to Earth without ever firing a shot. He dies.

If it weren't for being reborn Jesus style, it would be an entirely shitty day to be James T. Kirk. In what way is any of that an affirmation of his behavior? The whole point of the film is that he has to grow in order to become the captain he was meant to be, and after finally fumbling through things for a while he accomplished that at the end by realizing vengeance is wrong, being humbled and apologizing, sacrificing his life for his shipmates, treating Carol as a valued officer and member of the Enterprise family and not a potential conquest, and making an impassioned memorial speech, ethics mission statement, and a call for exploration at the end.

... just as we're supposed to chuckle over Kirk's joke out of the turbolift quipping about Spock and Uhura fighting. In other words, everything in Into Darkness is actually just a fun little Indiana Jones style 'romp'.
My god, the horror. How will we live down being compared to a fun billion dollar grossing critically and fan acclaimed film series?!

And yeah, you are supposed to laugh at the turbolift scene. I guess the audiences I saw the film with aren't as highbrow as you, because we all thought it was funny and not the abomination before Goddenberry you apparently felt it was.

The fact that it's been accepted points to audiences preferring not to think about anything deeper than how sexy Alice Eve looks in black lingere.
I and others have accepted it and have come up with deeper meaning behind that scene too, so don't presume to think your rigid and humorless take on how things should be is the norm.
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