RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,147
Posts: 5,434,297
Members: 24,934
Currently online: 582
Newest member: davidhan

TrekToday headlines

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 18 2013, 09:45 AM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

The bit about Nero having Borg tech makes no sense, because the movie timeline does not allow for him to obtain any between the destruction of Romulus and the trip to the past, and I can't see him having any in his original career as a humble miner...

Because he was originally supposed to use ALL of it. Jellyfish, in that case, was basically a giant manned torpedo with the red matter as its warhead.
It's very difficult to see how a mission that originally called for use of all the red matter would suddenly be satisfactorily (if somewhat belatedly) concluded by only using a tiny droplet of it!

But if Spock really could only stop the supernova (from existing, or from destroying Romulus, or whatever) by being there in time, it would make sense for him to tap his source of supernova-nullifying destruction for a single droplet that allows him to travel to the past, and then use the rest of it.

This only requires us to assume that Spock blatantly lied to Kirk about key facts during the mind meld - and since Spock is an expert melder and Kirk has never experienced the thing, it may well be that Spock could pull Kirk's leg a mile or a dozen. And if Spock lies about the going-to-past thing, then the whole meld might be full of lies, and there could indeed be room there for all the otherwise impossible things described in the Countdown comic.

Why would Spock lie? He says he only used a droplet and achieved something (supposedly the salvation of the galaxy), then began a trip back to Vulcan, but was intercepted by Nero and sent to the past. This must be a lie if his intent was to travel a few hours to the past to negate the supernova with a large amount of red matter. OTOH, if this really was his intent (and a very plausible one at that), we must assume that he never got the chance to complete it, because his supply of red matter survives. So, in his original timeline, not only Romulus but the entire galaxy was destroyed...

In general terms, Spock already 'fesses up on the ability to time-travel with red matter black holes, so his motivation for lying can't be keeping this secret from Kirk. His story also fails to hide his failure, so that can't be it, either. Plus I don't see Spock trying to hide the fact that he has failed.

Any ideas on how Spock's story could or should be a lie?

...And how this would affect the weaponry of the Vengeance? I guess Starfleet would insist on getting the specs of red matter from Spock Prime for perfectly legitimate reasons, and then apply these in illegitimate ways. More generally, Spock's ethics in lying to Kirk would reflect on his ethics in teaching the 23rd century Starfleet how to build futuro-weapons.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18 2013, 10:08 PM   #17
billcosby
Commodore
 
billcosby's Avatar
 
Location: billcosby
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
The bit about Nero having Borg tech makes no sense, because the movie timeline does not allow for him to obtain any between the destruction of Romulus and the trip to the past, and I can't see him having any in his original career as a humble miner...
Actually, the bit I'd read suggested it was armed with those weapons in the prime timeline, well before the events of Trek 09.

Can't remember if that bit was from the prequel comics in 09 or some wisdom from these boards. *shrug*.
__________________
My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion: http://billcosbytrekccg.blogspot.com/

billcosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 18 2013, 10:26 PM   #18
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

The movie itself leaves open the question of whether the Narada was "armed" at all, with any sort of weaponry.

Nero destroyed planets with a drill that obviously wasn't intended to be a weapon of war as such, as well as with red matter sponsored by planet Vulcan. The devices Nero used to varying degrees of success against Starfleet ships and shuttlecraft may or may not have been weapons, considering how well Nero did with a definite non-weapon! It's just a variant of the Wild West trope where mining equipment (dynamite, gelignite) is used in a weapon-like manner - surely a rude surprise to any opponent more than a century behind the times...

The comic suggested that after Romulus was lost, Nero gained access to high technology because his ship was the one remaining agent of vengeance that the Star Empire could deploy against its enemies (which in itself is pretty unlikely!). For this, Nero needed to sail to a secret stash run by Romulan spooks and wait for days for the tech to be installed, whereas in the movie Spock did not loiter long enough to allow Nero to take such a detour.

In contrast to this, ST:ID seems to be very explicit about Marcus/Khan possessing state-of-the-art 23rd century armaments. The extent to which these have been influenced by information from Spock Prime is unclear, but we do learn Spock has been spilling his guts on various threat issues, among these the existence and coordinates of the Botany Bay... He might also have seen fit to give Starfleet a means of fighting, oh, say, the Doomsday Machine or the Space Amoeba without having to sacrifice an entire starship to those first.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19 2013, 03:15 PM   #19
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
but we do learn Spock has been spilling his guts on various threat issues, among these the existence and coordinates of the Botany Bay... He might also have seen fit to give Starfleet a means of fighting, oh, say, the Doomsday Machine or the Space Amoeba without having to sacrifice an entire starship to those first.
Where do we "learn" that Spock is telling everyone about the future?
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 19 2013, 08:37 PM   #20
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Not the future, but the present. In the Spock-to-Spock chat, we learn that he has told Starfleet of Khan, and where to find him; it follows that he would tell of the Space Amoeba and the rest as well.

Whether this would lead to him telling how to fight those overwhelmingly powerful present threats with odds-evening future weapons is the real question. But he had no evident qualms about telling Starfleet about the future technology of transwarp beaming...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2013, 04:42 AM   #21
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
In the Spock-to-Spock chat, we learn that he has told Starfleet of Khan, and where to find him; it follows that he would tell of the Space Amoeba and the rest as well.
This didn't happen in the movie, and therefore isn't "canon." Are you talking about the novelization? Even if the latter is the source, it makes no sense based on Spock's statement that he would never divulge his knowledge to influence destiny in the new continuity.

Last edited by WarpFactorZ; June 20 2013 at 05:03 AM.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2013, 05:58 PM   #22
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post

In contrast to this, ST:ID seems to be very explicit about Marcus/Khan possessing state-of-the-art 23rd century armaments. The extent to which these have been influenced by information from Spock Prime is unclear, but we do learn Spock has been spilling his guts on various threat issues, among these the existence and coordinates of the Botany Bay...
Just focusing on the Vengeance, it was a ship by order of Section 31 purely to fight/dispatch enemies, no facility for diplomacy or exploration.

This alone gives the ship builders much more freedom to construct a formidable combat ship compared to the Enterprise.

Then you have the superior intellect of Khan who had a hand with conceptualising advanced defensive technologies aswell as being able to work out warp related problems that inhibit greater warp speeds that normal human intellects could not previously resolve.
__________________
No animals were harmed during posting ...
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2013, 06:48 PM   #23
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

This didn't happen in the movie, and therefore isn't "canon."
Ah, in that case I was misinformed.... Still haven't seen the movie.

If Spock didn't tell Starfleet, how did they find Khan? Supposedly nobody goes to that part of space any more, and the Botany Bay isn't visible at a distance...

Spock's statement that he would never divulge his knowledge to influence destiny in the new continuity
...An obvious and blatant lie, considering he divulged plenty of his knowledge to this explicit end in the first nuMovie!

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2013, 08:38 PM   #24
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
If Spock didn't tell Starfleet, how did they find Khan? Supposedly nobody goes to that part of space any more, and the Botany Bay isn't visible at a distance...
Section 31 got Starfleet (I think) to start looking all over the place for anything that could help them get an edge over the Klingons. A ship stumbled on the Botany Bay and that's how we got STiD.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 20 2013, 08:51 PM   #25
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

It sounds more than a bit unlikely that Starfleet would lack an edge over the Klingons if it has enough ships to spare that one of them would "stumble" onto Khan...

And how would that ship know that Khan was worth anything? The Botany Bay is just a run-of-the-mill derelict; even if ships of that type weren't supposed to be capable of transporting people from star to star, TOS showed such a ship in interstellar space hauling ore in "The Ultimate Computer", suggesting most skippers wouldn't blink at the sight of one.

It might be a bit more plausible that S31 would send a dozen Fox Mulders into the archives, looking for "paranormal" gamechangers, and one of them would patch together the story of Khan plus a few educated guesses of where his mythical ship might be found...

But olSpock could save them that trouble, as he seemed quite interested in giving a personal edge to nuKirk, and warning him about all the early 2260s threats would be a prudent way of doing that.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2013, 04:22 AM   #26
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
It sounds more than a bit unlikely that Starfleet would lack an edge over the Klingons if it has enough ships to spare that one of them would "stumble" onto Khan...
That doesn't mean they wouldn't still seek one, especially with the preemptive militaristic mindset Admiral Marcus represents.

Which sort of begs a fairly interesting question: assuming his present disposition isn't also a consequence of the loss of the Kelvin -- and I don't see how it would be -- then what the hell was Marcus like in the Prime Universe? My suspicion is that the likes of Admiral Cartwright and Colonel West were probably among his students after he retired; I'd even go so far as to say that the Klingon-Federation War that was eventually spoiled by Organian interference might have been Marcus' doing in the first place, that the FEDERATION actually started that war and it was his involvement in initiating the hostilities that lead Carol Marcus to leave Starfleet and look for civilian work.

And how would that ship know that Khan was worth anything?
The same way Kirk knew: when the commanding officer finally figured out who Khan really was. The only difference in this case is the CO of that ship was a (more paranoid than usual) Section 31 affiliate and accordingly didn't give Khan unrestricted access to the ship's library computer.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 21 2013, 09:33 PM   #27
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Hmm... The timeline would allow for Carol to have joined Starfleet here in a move that never took place in the Prime timeline - so the issue of her retiring in disgust wouldn't need to arise.

Apart from that, Daddy Marcus would probably just be one in a long line of hardliner Admirals in both universes; he just had greater means available in the nuMovies, thanks either to intel gathered from the Nero incident or to bloated budgets created in the aftermath of the Nero incident. If anything, the nuStarfleet might be "softer" than the Prime one, which is why Pike is so worried and eager to enlist hotheads like Kirk.

The same way Kirk knew: when the commanding officer finally figured out who Khan really was. The only difference in this case is the CO of that ship was a (more paranoid than usual) Section 31 affiliate and accordingly didn't give Khan unrestricted access to the ship's library computer.
Yup, that's how it would work after they boarded the sleeper ship. But why would they board it? From a distance, it looks like an automated ore carrier, and there are no lifesigns (sez McCoy). There's the distress beacon, but why would that attract a S31 operative? Another ancient distress signal didn't attract Pike in "The Cage" when he had a much less pressing competing mission.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 07:06 PM   #28
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
Yup, that's how it would work after they boarded the sleeper ship. But why would they board it?
Why did Kirk?
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 07:40 PM   #29
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Because Kirk apparently had orders to loiter with intent, to meddle whenever possible, and to satisfy idle curiosity; I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong. No stopping at ancient distress signals, exploring weird holes in space, undertaking transfers of mysterious passengers and so forth.

However, S31 might be smarter than that, realizing that some ancient distress signals, weird holes in space and mysterious passengers offer potential for powerful alliances with superentities, for weaponization, etc. After all, if Kirk didn't do that work in the nuUniverse, some other skipper probably still did, and the Marcus cabal would have read the logs.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 04:22 AM   #30
B.J.
Rear Admiral
 
B.J.'s Avatar
 
Location: Huntsville, AL, USA
Re: Vengeance Weapons (Spoilers, maybe)

Timo wrote: View Post
I'm worried that the putative S31-commandeered vessel would be more focused on finding things to make them strong.
When you say it like that, you make S31 sound like the Pakled!
__________________
B.J. --- bj-o23.deviantart.com
B.J. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
dreadnaught class, speculation, stid, uss vengeance, weapons

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.