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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 4 2013, 04:53 AM   #31
Tom Riley
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

One thing I'd like to point out is everyone's assumptions about the detail these simulated versions have. I really doubt the holodeck computer would simulate a person down to the very detail of their genitals when someone asks for a sim with this person's likeness. More likely the computer would give you the amount of detailing you could get from any public pictures and would then create generic body parts for anywhere you couldn't get in an image.

Is that really any different than pulling up a porn image now and photoshopping someone else's head on it? Like was said earlier, Quark had to try to get an actual scan of Kira for the program he tried to make, so obviously the computer wouldn't make a fully accurate simulation on its own.

So is it violating your privacy if none of the private bits are actually duplications of yours? That's something to think about...
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Old June 4 2013, 06:20 AM   #32
_C_
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

^I understand what you're getting at, but I think it'd still be kind of creepy to ME personally. I'm not everybody else, so I'm just stating my opinion. :P
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Old June 4 2013, 07:13 AM   #33
R. Star
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Well we only saw those 3d holo cameras that capture the details below the clothes twice. Quark had one and the Doctor on Voyager had one. But that perv(played by Jeffery Combs!) wanted an accurate holo of Kira, so Quark resorted to his antics. Though why he just didn't have one of his waiters take a picture of Kira while he was talking to her is beyond me. But yeah, obtaining a holo like that should be illegal.

I always just assumed that if a created hologram is in a compromising position shall we say, the computer just... fills in the blanks with something appropriate, that may not be completely accurate. The general "public" personality and generic picture is public file... the computer provides it on asking, so taking that information and making a hologram from it doesn't strike me as wrong.

Creepy? Sure.. I'd think so too if it was me. But I just don't see anything illegal about it. Not that much different than using your imagination... just with some computer interaction.
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Old June 4 2013, 09:58 AM   #34
Tiberius
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

_C_ wrote: View Post
I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know. I'd be very upset and feel invaded if somebody was using my likeness in a porn program or something. Really, I'd rather CHOOSE who gets to see me naked!
And how would it be you? Or even an accurate representation of you? Unless the person in question somehow got access to what you look like naked, it's just a generic person shape of your approximate size with your face. Doesn't mean they got any other details right.
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Old June 4 2013, 09:58 PM   #35
Tom Riley
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

_C_ wrote: View Post
^I understand what you're getting at, but I think it'd still be kind of creepy to ME personally. I'm not everybody else, so I'm just stating my opinion. :P
No definitely. I mean I'd find it super creepy if I found out now that someone was photoshopping my face onto generic naked bodies to beat off to. I just don't think that their computer should notify me to it if it were possible, as creepy as it may be.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:22 PM   #36
JoeZhang
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Well we do have present day exceptions to that - if you simulate a child being abused, you can be arrested (or at least I think that is the case).
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Old June 5 2013, 10:54 AM   #37
Timo
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

I really think if someone's likeness is being used in a holoprogram, the subject should know.
Really?

I mean, really?

Let's play out the scenario. I'm now reporting that I have purchased a sex doll looking exactly like you, based on perfectly legal photographs I have taken of you, a set of measurements your tailor perfectly legally gave me, and very detailed interviews of your ex-girlfriends. I have dressed you up as Sheriff of Nottingham in a tableau including other fellow TrekBBS members, and every Tuesday night I play a little scene where I get to be Robin Hood, make all of you look like fools, and get Maid Marion (fashioned in the likeness of T'Bonz, of course).

Are you happier now that you are well informed?

if you simulate a child being abused, you can be arrested (or at least I think that is the case).
In some places, it might be. But that doesn't involve privacy in any way - the supposed arrest would take place even if the simulation bore no resemblance to any existing child, and indeed was not based on anybody in particular.

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Old June 18 2013, 05:50 AM   #38
nureintier
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
You are a Starfleet Captain... a captain with needs... you create a program on the holodeck where Worf is tea-bagging commander Riker - moral or not?

If nobody else sees it - what's the problem? How is it really different from simply thinking about the same activities?
Well, I think it would make you a bit of a creep, even if it only involved holograms of another person without their consent.

In a way, it's not much different than fantasizing about a person, but I think there are important differences. You can't police people's thoughts, but you can make laws about interactive software which could be misrepresenting you to a lot of people. It would also mean someone like Quark would be profiting from unauthorized use of your image.

Well we only saw those 3d holo cameras that capture the details below the clothes twice. Quark had one and the Doctor on Voyager had one. But that perv(played by Jeffery Combs!) wanted an accurate holo of Kira, so Quark resorted to his antics. Though why he just didn't have one of his waiters take a picture of Kira while he was talking to her is beyond me. But yeah, obtaining a holo like that should be illegal.
Yeah, that's the episode that came to my mind reading this. I don't know about laws then, but I know that now, in real life, people have certain rights to the way their likeness is being used. And I think many would object to it being used for something like simulated sex in a holo program. Again, no idea how such things would work in the ST universe, but in real life, we have things like model release forms to authorize the use of (and profit from) someone's likeness.

I know I keep talking about legal matters and not moral ones...
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Old June 18 2013, 08:33 AM   #39
Charles Phipps
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

In RL, it's perfectly normal to sexually fantasize about just about anyone. However, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a situation like the one on Deep Space Nine where Quark is making a sex doll hologram of Major Kira without her knowledge/permission. That strikes me as grossly inappropriate.

I think that, were I a JAG in the Starfleet world, I'd rule that anyone can make a cease and desist order for use of their images without their permission.
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Old June 19 2013, 06:21 AM   #40
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Using Enterprise assets to denigrate a fellow officer is certainly conduct unbecoming, & also potential harassment if the assets are able to be accessed publicly. Though I've never really heard it mentioned as such, I'd have to imagine there's regulations of that manner in Starfleet

The bigger question is why after having become aware of Barclay's fantasies & having been subject to discovering them, didn't Troi recuse herself as his professional counsel? Clearly that's a patient conflict. She can no longer provide effective therapy to him because that relationship has been polluted. Frankly, she can no longer be a completely impartial & objective therapist
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Old June 20 2013, 02:57 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

...But she may still be the only one available. When enlisting in Starfleet, you probably have to suck it up and tolerate many a thing that civilian life would not force you to go through. Both Troi and Barclay may have had to waive a long list of civil rights and comforts when taking the Starfleet oath, and this is one of the rare occasions where this comes back to bite them in practice.

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Old June 20 2013, 07:19 PM   #42
Pavonis
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Mojochi wrote: View Post
Frankly, she can no longer be a completely impartial & objective therapist
Aside from the fact that there never seemed to be any other psychologists or psychiatrists aboard besides Troi (and what kind of therapist doesn't have a therapist of their own?), Troi's empathy must leave her feeling all the various levels of sexual attraction to her from the rest of the crew. If she's not supposed to treat Barclay because he is sexually attracted to her, how can she treat any of the crew? Even Picard might have a low-level subconscious sexual attraction to her, yet she works with him regularly. I must conclude that Troi is able to be impartial about the crew's sexual attraction to her, if only because she's able to interact normally with the crew.
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Old June 21 2013, 05:32 AM   #43
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I must conclude that Troi is able to be impartial about the crew's sexual attraction to her, if only because she's able to interact normally with the crew.
I consider it pretty normal to be attracted to someone that is good looking. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old June 21 2013, 06:13 AM   #44
Oso Blanco
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
How would you feel is someone had a RealDoll made that looked just like you?
That would certainly be strange, but how would I even know about it? How do I know that nobody has such a doll already? I guess that person would have some serious mental problems, though ... I hope they got the beer belly right ...

Tom Riley wrote: View Post
Is that really any different than pulling up a porn image now and photoshopping someone else's head on it?
As long as you keep this photoshopped image to yourself, who cares? And where do you draw the line here? What about non photoshopped images? Let's be honest guys, haven't we all had moments in our lives when all we had was a picture of the girl we were absolutely crazy about and drooling all over this picture was the closest we would ever get to this girl? Let he who is without sin ... and so on.
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Old June 21 2013, 06:38 AM   #45
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Re: Morality and the Holodeck - slightly different question

It's quite different from just photoshopping an image, or stimulating yourself with a random photo from Facebook. It's a full on simulation of a person that looks, sounds, smells, and feels like that person.

I wouldn't think there'd be anything illegal about creating a hologram from memory or imagination, but what about creating holograms from tricorder scans or transporter patterns? That's where it gets icky.
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