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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old June 6 2013, 09:38 PM   #31
Timo
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Come up with a bunch of NEW weapons that can crush them before they adapt to them.
...Which is the opposite of the idea I was commenting on and declaring unworkable, that of creating a weapon so powerful that it renders all adaptation meaningless.

The 8472 had something of that caliber: a death ray capable of destroying planets. The Xindi had the same, thanks to future help. But those weapons demonstrated no anti-ship capabilities, so a force of Cubes still stands invincible against brute force attempts on screen.

First Contact, for example, would have resulted in victory for the Borg if they had simply deployed two or more cubes to the job.
It did result in Borg victory: Earth was assimilated. This was done with subtle Borg trickery (time travel) rather than with brute force.

That it was later (earlier!) undone does not disqualify the original concept as such.

a rather inexplicable addition to their capabilities that appears to be a misunderstanding of Guinan's line
Agreed - but it's a rather exciting and facilitating addition. Trek is full of such misunderstandings (Data speaks formally -> Data can't contract was just silly; Ferengi are greedy -> Ferengi can't and won't fight was equally silly but in a good way), and usually manages to wring something interesting out of them.

"Q Who?" already showed the Borg adapting anyway: originally, Worf's phasers worked on a Drone, then they no longer did. It was part of the concept in any case, regardless of later misunderstandings, oversimplifications and plain concept evolution.

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Old June 7 2013, 04:12 AM   #32
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
The 8472 had something of that caliber: a death ray capable of destroying planets. The Xindi had the same, thanks to future help. But those weapons demonstrated no anti-ship capabilities, so a force of Cubes still stands invincible against brute force attempts on screen.
Oh yeah, the Borg were totally invincible against Species 8472.



Yep. Totally invincible.

First Contact, for example, would have resulted in victory for the Borg if they had simply deployed two or more cubes to the job.
It did result in Borg victory
Or at least, it WOULD have if Enteprise hadn't followed the sphere through the vortex.

But even assuming the time travel plot was absolutely necessary (besides being entirely asinine in light of everything we know about the Borg) Enterprise's interference could have been prevented by the presence of a second cube tasked with keeping any starships from pursuing the sphere.

a rather inexplicable addition to their capabilities that appears to be a misunderstanding of Guinan's line
Agreed - but it's a rather exciting and facilitating addition.
No it isn't. It's a plot device that gives the Borg a highly convenient invincibility screen. This immediately comes around to bite you in the ass since you now have to have your characters find an equally convenient "Shoot here to kill us all" plot device to exploit.

Imagine playing out Best of Both Worlds if the Borg never actually adapted to anything. Not much would change about the storyline itself except that the Borg ship would have to show noticeable damage after very exchange of fire, damage which slowly dissapears shot by shot as the cube regenerates. The decimation of the fleet at Wolf-359 would also by the same, except that you would also have a scene where the Enterprise encounters almost fully-restored Borg Cube, hard at work carving pieces out of the hulks to complete its last round of repairs.

In that context, Data's "I put them all to sleep" technique would finally make sense: Data sends them a command to start regenerating parts of the ship that aren't actually damaged, parts that they continue to perceive are damaged despite the fact that they are perfectly functional. Engine and weapon components start collecting more and more power until they finally blow themselves to pieces and take the Borg with them.

"Q Who?" already showed the Borg adapting anyway: originally, Worf's phasers worked on a Drone, then they no longer did.
They didn't work on the FIRST drone either; the implication is that the first drone's armor repelled the phaser blast and Worf dialed a higher setting to kill it. The second drone didn't "adapt" to anything; the Borg simply sent one with a shield generator as well as armor.
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Old June 10 2013, 08:06 PM   #33
Timo
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Quite the opposite, which is my point. The Species 8472 beat the Borg hands down without using their so-powerful-that-adaptation-becomes-meaningless supergun, so that's a further failure to find an example of that strategy ever working.

No it isn't. It's a plot device that gives the Borg a highly convenient invincibility screen. This immediately comes around to bite you in the ass since you now have to have your characters find an equally convenient "Shoot here to kill us all" plot device to exploit.
And this is less exciting than "shoot at them until their ability to regenerate gets overwhelmed", how?

An adversary that simply takes more shots to kill than yer average Klingon sounds just about as boring as adversaries can get...

The second drone didn't "adapt" to anything; the Borg simply sent one with a shield generator as well as armor.
And this is not adapting for what reason?

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Old June 11 2013, 11:12 PM   #34
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Timo wrote: View Post
Quite the opposite, which is my point. The Species 8472 beat the Borg hands down without using their so-powerful-that-adaptation-becomes-meaningless supergun....
They didn't need superguns. Turns out there Unusually Large guns were more than sufficient. When you've got a weapon that can slag a Borg cube with two hits or less, adaptation is irrelevant.

And this is less exciting than "shoot at them until their ability to regenerate gets overwhelmed", how?
For the same reason "Aliens" was more exciting than "First Contact."

Because you can't really fight something that slowly and invincibly ambles down a hallway like a mechanized zombie. At a certain point you're reduced to screaming at them while slowly backpedaling and looking really tense, but that isn't a fight as much as it is an obvious waste of time.

Picture the "Last Stand" scene from Aliens, only gump some Borg Drones in place of the aliens and add a scene of a couple of those drones -- having already been shot to pieces -- scooping up their entrails and literally pulling themselves back together until a fully-functional condition. Ultimately it has the same dynamics -- your security team winds up being chased down a hallway by invincible drones -- but the difference is that 1) it actually makes sense to shoot them now because your shots have SOME effect and 2) mechanical zomies getting shot to pieces is a lot more fun to watch than mechanical zombies with CGI forcefields on their chests.

An adversary that simply takes more shots to kill than yer average Klingon sounds just about as boring as adversaries can get...
Except they don't die, they just get back up and keep coming, again and again and again, pretty much forever. Which means you're up against an enemy that can't be killed, not because it's indestructible, but because destroying it won't actually kill it. It's a bit like the Flood from Halo 2 and especially 3. In addition to the fact that you get to watch some of your own Marines transformed into mutant killing machines right in front of you, sometimes you gun down those killing machines only to watch them reanimate themselves, get back up and start attacking you again; you have to kill that same mutated marine three or four times, and by the time you've done this your shields are down and you're almost out of ammo.

Anyone can blow up a ship, but Borg ships just slither back together and come at you again. You can only blow it up so many times before your phasers burn out and your torpedo bays run out of ammo, and then they've got you.

And this is not adapting for what reason?
In the same sense that Worf wasn't "adapting" when he dialed his phaser up to a higher setting. They didn't analyze his weapon and come up with a countermeasure, they just sent a tougher drone.
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Old June 15 2013, 06:19 AM   #35
Ensign Ricky
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Why not just use gold against them?
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Old June 19 2013, 12:55 AM   #36
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

The Borg want to add Earth's biological and technological distinctiveness to their own. Ultimate Luddite Revolution: Destroy all technology as to not be a tempting target for the technology. And since so many billions of humans without tech (food and health) cannot be sustained, a large part would die of starvation and disease so the Borg wouldnt bother to assimilate Earth's naked apes.

Did I just say continuing war is better than universal peace? Ok, now I'm depressed.
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Old June 19 2013, 05:37 AM   #37
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

xvicente wrote: View Post
The Borg want to add Earth's biological and technological distinctiveness to their own. Ultimate Luddite Revolution: Destroy all technology as to not be a tempting target for the technology.
Wouldn't work. Remember, in First Contact the Borg traveled back in time to a point where humanity had basically done that because it would be easier to assimilate them.
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Old June 20 2013, 02:00 AM   #38
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
xvicente wrote: View Post
The Borg want to add Earth's biological and technological distinctiveness to their own. Ultimate Luddite Revolution: Destroy all technology as to not be a tempting target for the technology.
Wouldn't work. Remember, in First Contact the Borg traveled back in time to a point where humanity had basically done that because it would be easier to assimilate them.
I dont get the Borg(s) in First Contact. First they try to assimilate Earth by brute force as always.When that failed they sent themselves thru time and are able to assimilate Earth because in the 21st century we have no weapons. Which is kind of pointless because all the technolygy the Borg wanted in the first place wasnt invented yet.

Since they traveled to the exact time of Cochrane they intended to ruin first contact between humans and vulcans. THAT fits nowhere in the Borg plan. I wish they made up their collective mind.

Maybe they assimilated a stupid species and added their stupidity to their own.
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Old June 20 2013, 02:18 AM   #39
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

I like the theory in the novels that the Borg were being used as a cat's paw by a TCW faction during FC. It makes as much sense as any other explanation for the radical and never-repeated change in tactics.
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Old June 20 2013, 01:42 PM   #40
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

DonIago wrote: View Post
I like the theory in the novels that the Borg were being used as a cat's paw by a TCW faction during FC. It makes as much sense as any other explanation for the radical and never-repeated change in tactics.
:facepalm:
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Old June 20 2013, 02:32 PM   #41
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

If you have a better explanation...
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Old June 20 2013, 02:33 PM   #42
Crazyewok
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

One word

Genesis


Why not build a few of these. Sure they could destroy a Cube.

I think the Klingons and Romulans would understand if its for borg bashing.
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Old June 20 2013, 05:34 PM   #43
Hando
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
One word

Genesis


Why not build a few of these. Sure they could destroy a Cube.

I think the Klingons and Romulans would understand if its for borg bashing.
I don't believe that the Genesis weapon/torpedo is such a kill-all weapon.
I would say that if detonated it transforms matter into a M-class planet with life. But, I don't believe that it would work against a shielded enemy. Maybe first get the enemy's shields down and then Genesis eliminates them.
But even then, a proto-Genesis would me more effective, after all we don't need planets (and if they are created in the wrong place all life on them would still die out). Just destruction would be enough, so a singularity/black hole would be better - to destroy ought to be enough, no need for creation.
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Old June 20 2013, 05:38 PM   #44
Crazyewok
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

Hando wrote: View Post

I don't believe that the Genesis weapon/torpedo is such a kill-all weapon.
I would say that if detonated it transforms matter into a M-class planet with life. But, I don't believe that it would work against a shielded enemy. Maybe first get the enemy's shields down and then Genesis eliminates them.
But even then, a proto-Genesis would me more effective, after all we don't need planets (and if they are created in the wrong place all life on them would still die out). Just destruction would be enough, so a singularity/black hole would be better - to destroy ought to be enough, no need for creation.

It seems pretty destructive as the enterprise had to go to warp to get away from it.

But as for the planet building stuff. No you dont need it so yeah it would be a weaponised version.
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Old June 20 2013, 05:44 PM   #45
anh165
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Re: Anti-Borg technology and tactics

I think people overestimate the Borg's interest in the Federation, there are thousands of worlds they can conquer and the Feds just happened to be a passing opportunity to find out what they are about.

Shooting cubes with fanwank phasers works up to a point if you apply the "borg adapts" rule to it, and considering how many drones are out there spread out among many cubes across the galaxy.
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