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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: 'Who' is John Hurt
The original incarnation of The Doctor (pre-Hartnell) 9 9.09%
The 9th Doctor, the one who ended the Time-War 57 57.58%
The Doctor's final incarnation, the 13th Doctor 3 3.03%
Something else entirely 30 30.30%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 19 2013, 05:13 PM   #196
Turbo
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

That was indeed a great article. I'll have to check out more of that site.

As for the John Hurt Doctor...I think at this point I'm in the "something else" camp. An unknown regeneration between 8 and 9 seems too obvious to me.
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Old June 20 2013, 09:18 PM   #197
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Turbo wrote: View Post
That was indeed a great article. I'll have to check out more of that site.

As for the John Hurt Doctor...I think at this point I'm in the "something else" camp. An unknown regeneration between 8 and 9 seems too obvious to me.
Plus it seems hypocritical for the Doctor that used the Moment to be seen as unworthy of the name while Ten who basically made sure it happened gets a pass on it.

Not to mention how anticlimactic it is to make the Hurt Doctor's horrible thing he did turn out to be something we already know about.
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Old June 22 2013, 02:55 AM   #198
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Yeah the more I think about it the "Hurt" Doctor feels like he may have been the man the Doctor was before he was the Doctor and why as the Doctor he's basically been "running" from it all this time. I'm thinking he did something "in the name of peace" that was so horrible and yet maybe so necessary that it shook him so much perhaps he even attempted to take his own life - BUT he regenerated into Hartnell (maybe as a much younger man - I mean who's to say that Hartnell's Doctor didn't live a very very long life as it was, establishing his reputation as the Doctor. After all, he knew he would regenerate. Why should Hartnell be the '1st' Doctor that we just happened to be following for the past 50 years. And really when you think about it - the Doctor has been doing this only for about 50 years - if we're to take all his other adventures as happening in real time sorta. Granted as a time traveler he could have spent centuries in one place, but from a "civilian" POV - the Blue Police box and the companions that followed the Doctor started in the 60s. Allegedly. We've never seen or heard of him taking on true 'companions' or 'assistants' and after all the 1st Doctor had a "Granddaughter" which is still leaving me to believe that he had spent a very long time either as Hartnell or... this 'not the Doctor, Doctor." that Hurt is - and the family came from him. Maybe the wife he had his granddaughter from (and presumably a daughter lol) was killed or he killed her because she was going all 'Master'
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Old June 22 2013, 04:02 AM   #199
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nick Ryder wrote: View Post
Why should Hartnell be the '1st' Doctor that we just happened to be following for the past 50 years.
We've been told multiple times over the years that he was the first. The only story to imply that there were earlier Doctors was "The Brain of Morbius," but that was years after "The Three Doctors" had established him as the earliest incarnation of the Doctor. In "The Five Doctors" he said he was "the original, you might say." Various later Doctors, especially the past three, have been referred to by the corresponding numbers -- for instance, Dorium referring to "the Fall of the Eleventh" at Trenzalore.

Although, of course, the Doctor said that the Hurt incarnation was the one who broke the promise of the name "Doctor" and thus is not considered one of the Doctors, resolving the inconsistency. Still, in order for him to have broken the promise and been unworthy of the name, it seems he would've had to come after the Doctor had adopted the name and the promise that went with it; thus it seems unlikely that he preceded the First Doctor.


And really when you think about it - the Doctor has been doing this only for about 50 years - if we're to take all his other adventures as happening in real time sorta.
Except that in the '70s the Doctor generally said that he was in his 400s, but by the late '80s he was saying he was 900, a number the new series reused. And Eleven explicitly aged another 200 years before the end of last season; he's said to be 1100 now.

Personally I prefer not to take the age references too literally, since there are far too few gaps in the saga where the Doctor's without human companions long enough for decades or centuries to pass between aired episodes. But that last one is pretty unambiguous. And even though the Doctor claimed to be 900 from his sixth lifetime through his eleventh, a great deal of time certainly seems to have passed between the Seventh and Ninth Doctors.
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Old June 22 2013, 05:42 AM   #200
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

If anything I would have thought the biggest age jump would have been between 10 and 11 since it seemed like 10 spent a lot of time roaming around the galaxy and time and generally going on his own merry way sans companions or at least companions we were told about. I mean hell he married 'Good Queen Bess' so... I mean let's face it, he could have lived with her for even the average life span of like 60-70 years - but its sorta quasi accepted that it was only a few years he spent traveling around

Time travelers are so funny that way. But what I find rather interesting really is that while he does seem to age - and frankly I have no problem with a couple hundred years passing here and there, but I do have a problem with basically the 11th being the "longest lived" Doctor of the bunch - with the exception of the 1st who - okay we're told he's the original - but you know Time Lord logic, "yes he was the first but first of what? First Doctor - yes. First me. No." Or for all we know the Doctor was his 'code name' before he took it as his real name.

Think fourth dimensionally. Personally a Doctor between 8 and 9 I dunno - 9 seemed pretty damaged so I suppose Hurt could have come from before his time - but at the same time - if it was 8.5 that put Gallifrey in Time Lock - and 'ended the war' then... why is 10 who basically KEPT the time lock intact not looked at as poorly - granted he died at the end of it all - but still. It was pretty clear the other Time Lords were pretty frickin' nuts and it wasn't such a bad thing that they're kept in Time Lock.

So I dunno... unless they're going to spring something and say that he was a time crisis dupe that sprung up and while he 'came from' the Doctor, he wasn't the Doctor and did some bad things... although what's more interesting. They specifically called the Doctor the Valeyard - who I thought everyone thought MAY have been an older form of the Doctor - although if that's the case - could the Hurt Doctor even be a POST 13 regeneration Doctor - like the Doctor had 13 regens and then thought he was dead for good and then Hurt pops out - saves the day doing something reeeally nasty maybe in the past - OR was the one that did the whole 'end the time war' thing... that resulted in the 9th coming around and somehow merged or was a memory echo... I dunno
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Old June 22 2013, 11:23 PM   #201
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Nick Ryder wrote: View Post
If anything I would have thought the biggest age jump would have been between 10 and 11 since it seemed like 10 spent a lot of time roaming around the galaxy and time and generally going on his own merry way sans companions or at least companions we were told about. I mean hell he married 'Good Queen Bess' so... I mean let's face it, he could have lived with her for even the average life span of like 60-70 years - but its sorta quasi accepted that it was only a few years he spent traveling around
The Doctor gives his age in Voyage of the Damned as 903 and in The End of Time he says he's 906, so clearly between those two episodes there's only three years. After RTD established the Ninth Doctor was 900 years old, he consistently added one year to that age as each season when by, which Moffat continued until seasons 6 and 7 where the Doctor starts aging a couple hundred years.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:03 AM   #202
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

^Yeah, but the problem is that the Doctor first said he was 900 in "Revelation of the Daleks" in his sixth incarnation, and claimed to be 953 in "Time and the Rani" at the start of his seventh.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor's_age
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Old June 23 2013, 12:10 AM   #203
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

And...what would he use as a reference point? Kinda hard to keep track of the passage of time when you're travelling through time. Plus, which planet's years?
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Old June 23 2013, 01:02 AM   #204
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Sindatur wrote: View Post
And...what would he use as a reference point? Kinda hard to keep track of the passage of time when you're travelling through time. Plus, which planet's years?
I like to think that a year on Gallifrey equals roughly nine months on Earth; hence the Doctor in Tomb Of The Cybermen would have been about 600 Gallifrey years old, and by the time of Nuwho about 1200 (900 Gallifrey years travelling and 900 Earth years old).

He would surely know his age or have access to some kind of time-telling device . In NuWho the Master even kew the Doctor's approximate age, so presumably there is some kind of synchronicity.
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Old June 23 2013, 01:03 AM   #205
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Sindatur wrote: View Post
And...what would he use as a reference point? Kinda hard to keep track of the passage of time when you're travelling through time. Plus, which planet's years?
Which is kind of my point. RTD and Moffat being so careful to keep track of the Doctor's age references and move them forward somewhat consistently clashes with the previous practice where his mentions of his age were all over the place.
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Old June 23 2013, 02:22 AM   #206
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

And the Time and the Rani reference is one we can take as definite: the situation is that the Doctor is able to guess the pin-code for a locked door, because he guesses the Rani will have used her age, and they're the same age, so... and it opens the door, so he's either right, or very very lucky.
This obviously opens up lots of stuff, like apparently confirming Gallifreyan Mean Time (that there's some link in TARDISes which mean Time Lords meet in sync: if it's been 10 days for one of them it'll be 10 days for the other one as well, so the Doctor and the Rani are always the same age), and whether that's Gallifreyan years or not (but either way, the Doctor and the Rani are using the same ones, so it surely must be Gallifreyan?), and quite when the Doctor worked out how old he actually was, having lost count during Tom Baker's time (at least according to Romana).
But.. the Time and the Rani scene only works if the Rani and the Doctor are both genuinely 953 at that point, so they are 953 [wherever] years old in that episode, and any statement that contradicts that is wrong, or has to be finessed out of the way, like using a different year.
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Old June 23 2013, 02:49 AM   #207
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

^It's Doctor Who. Continuity has never been a priority. Don't worry about it.
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Old June 23 2013, 02:54 AM   #208
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

Christopher wrote: View Post
^It's Doctor Who. Continuity has never been a priority. Don't worry about it.
Says the chap whose ingenuity in sorting out the times when Trek writers said the same is legendary!
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Old June 23 2013, 04:09 AM   #209
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

I'm gonna take a stab here and suggest that the Doctor, by the time we first meet Nine, had stopped counting his age from when he was biologically born/Loomed/whatever (a deliberate attempt to distance himself from the people he'd just murdered) and started counting his age from the day he first set foot inside the TARDIS and fled Gallifrey - the day he first truly became 'the Doctor.'
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Old June 23 2013, 04:10 AM   #210
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Re: One particular SPOILER from The Name of the Doctor

diankra wrote: View Post
Says the chap whose ingenuity in sorting out the times when Trek writers said the same is legendary!
Well, that's different. Trek has usually made some effort at consistency and credibility, even though it often falls short. Who has generally been more unrepentantly a fanciful tall tale, a ripping yarn where believability is not a priority. It's tended to have a much more improvisational approach to its worldbuilding, and that's part of its charm. I feel that trying to discipline it into a cohesive, logical continuity is doing it a disservice.
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