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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old May 26 2013, 10:45 AM   #31
Tiberius
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Faria wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

Fine. Although I'd love to see how you go using the stairs to climb a sixteen storey building.
i do it every day: my apartment is on the 12th
How many times? I can see some poor ensign starting his shift in engineering, then taking a report to the bridge, then going down to the shuttlebay , then going to the cargo bay to get a spare part, back to the shuttle bay, then down to engineering to report to the chief engineer, then back to the shuttlebay, off to a lab...

I bet you walk down your 12 flights once when you leave, then again when you come back.

And also, how long does it take yo to walk up 12 floors? Would you really want to take that long to deliver a report to the bridge, or would it be better to use a lift?
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Old May 26 2013, 11:34 AM   #32
Robert Comsol
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Faria wrote: View Post


Because I had the impression you took an unbiased approach to the subject, I wondered if you felt that the zig-zagging turbo lift course from the saucer to the engineering hull would really make sense.

I'd say that the shape of the TOS turbo lift studio set, the apparent close proximity to the turbo shaft lights, the same width of the set as the corridor set and last but not least the little bump that sticks out flat at the top of the VFX model Enterprise near the Bridge all indicate an essential cylindrical shape of your typical TOS turbo lift car.

Where I sympathize with Faria is that less turbo shaft space means more space for rooms aboard the ship. I'm just realizing that in the course of my TOS deck plan project where the rationalization of the turbo shaft network in the saucer has become a problem and currently keeps me from considerable progress.

Bob
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Old May 27 2013, 06:53 PM   #33
MacLeod
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Faria wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

Fine. Although I'd love to see how you go using the stairs to climb a sixteen storey building.
i do it every day: my apartment is on the 12th
How many times? I can see some poor ensign starting his shift in engineering, then taking a report to the bridge, then going down to the shuttlebay , then going to the cargo bay to get a spare part, back to the shuttle bay, then down to engineering to report to the chief engineer, then back to the shuttlebay, off to a lab...

I bet you walk down your 12 flights once when you leave, then again when you come back.

And also, how long does it take yo to walk up 12 floors? Would you really want to take that long to deliver a report to the bridge, or would it be better to use a lift?
I spend a fair amount of my day walking back and forth, and up and down stairs.
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Old May 27 2013, 07:23 PM   #34
Timo
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Since inertia no longer appears to be a concern in the Star Trek universe, I don't really see the problem with stepped turboshafts and sharp corners. Surely it must be trivial for the turbolift to do a fifty-gee turn at a corner when the starship apparently can do five thousand gee turns without as much as causing Kirk's coffee to spill.

By the same token, there's no particular reason why Kirk's feet should remain pointed down throughout a long turbolift trip. He couldn't tell the difference even if the lift did cartwheels to clear a particularly tight corner or hop over a GNDN line.

Whether the stepped shaft often portrayed on the neck of the TOS vessel is an accurate representation, or a symbolic one in the style of London tube maps, it's difficult to tell; these "cutout" or "MSD" views supposedly exist to serve an in-universe purpose, for which perfect realism would probably be counterproductive in most cases.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 7 2013, 07:19 PM   #35
sbk1234
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Albertese wrote: View Post
Faria wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Let's see, what's the difference between having more corridors, and more staircases instead of a turbolift shaft?

Wouldn't a corridor and more corridors and staircase(s) take up space as well?

Your reasoning is non sequitor. You are saying that turbolift shafts take up space, but to replace them by corridors which also take up space.
an imagine is better rhan 1000 words:


You may have misunderstood that drawing... Here's the same trip you tried to plot, using brown for the corridors and blue for the turbolifts. You can see the turbolift is a way more direct route. To go on foot, you have to cut through the Rec Deck! It seems like, at least on this version, the designers are assuming that turbolifts are the primary means of moving around on the ship.




--Alex
Personally, while I have no problem with the idea of turbolifts, I've always felt they were a little excessive with the horizontal shafts, as pictured here. The ships were large, but not THAT large. We weren't talking miles of walking. In my mind they didn't have more than a couple horizontal shafts per deck, and the crew did have to do some walking to get to where they were going. (Emergency situations, and the captain could be given the privilage of shorter walks due to more convenient drop-offs.) As mentioned, the bigggest issue would be the vertical travel.
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Old June 8 2013, 03:53 PM   #36
JarodRussell
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Turbolifts, like shuttles and beaming, were only created because the show didn't have an infinite budget.

With turbolifts you can have two characters talk while they get from A to B. Without turbolifts they would need to walk through corridors and take stairs and the camera would have to follow them: a lot more expensive, and the result doesn't work as well.
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Old June 19 2013, 01:50 AM   #37
xvicente
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Albertese wrote: View Post
Faria wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Let's see, what's the difference between having more corridors, and more staircases instead of a turbolift shaft?

Wouldn't a corridor and more corridors and staircase(s) take up space as well?

Your reasoning is non sequitor. You are saying that turbolift shafts take up space, but to replace them by corridors which also take up space.
an imagine is better rhan 1000 words:


You may have misunderstood that drawing... Here's the same trip you tried to plot, using brown for the corridors and blue for the turbolifts. You can see the turbolift is a way more direct route. To go on foot, you have to cut through the Rec Deck! It seems like, at least on this version, the designers are assuming that turbolifts are the primary means of moving around on the ship.




--Alex

What's so great about point A that so many people from point B are so keen to get there and what's so great about point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there?
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Old June 19 2013, 05:35 AM   #38
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

xvicente wrote: View Post
What's so great about point A that so many people from point B are so keen to get there and what's so great about point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there?
Point A contains Ensign Ricky.
Point B contains a naked Orion girl.
Hallways are too damn slow.
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Old June 20 2013, 02:03 AM   #39
xvicente
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
xvicente wrote: View Post
What's so great about point A that so many people from point B are so keen to get there and what's so great about point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there?
Point A contains Ensign Ricky.
Point B contains a naked Orion girl.
Hallways are too damn slow.
Hooray for point B... Go Ricky!
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Old June 23 2013, 12:40 AM   #40
solariabsg25
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Except of course people aren't going to use turbolifts for short journeys anyway, in all likelyhood will not use them to travel on the same deck, only from transfer from one deck to another.

The time saving is when the ship is called to battlestations. You could have 150+ crewmembers suddenly trying to get from their quarters to to their duty stations. You have a few elevators or stairways, that will easily lead to logjams. There are numberous turbolifts that use the same system, so a single access point could enable up to six cars or more to be accessed in quick succession, without having thirty crewmen twiddling their thumbs waiting for the car to drop off it's passengers on it's several stops down the ship before coming back up to take the next batch.
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Old June 23 2013, 12:06 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Except of course people aren't going to use turbolifts for short journeys anyway, in all likelyhood will not use them to travel on the same deck, only from transfer from one deck to another.
But if the turboshaft layout is similar to what is shown in the above pictures (and those are actually a very good match to the actual sets, and to the way they shoot people going from place to place using those sets), then walking usually is not an option. The turboshafts get in the way and prevent direct walking beyond a few "blocks" or at most a quarter-segment of the circular corridors.

The time saving is when the ship is called to battlestations.
There in turn we run into the problem that a call to battlestations is the one time when the system could plausibly fail on you, catastrophically preventing the ship from achieving battlestations when half the personnel are stuck in jammed turbolifts...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old June 23 2013, 12:31 PM   #42
solariabsg25
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Which is unfortunately exactly the same problem should a normal lift system jam. Turbolifts will (hopefully) get people to their stations in a matter of minutes. How long would it take someone on say a modern Nuclear Carrier, to get from for example the mess-hall to engineering going via ladders and corridors?

In all of Trek, turbolift failures are shown to be relatively rare, off the top of my head I can only recall TWOK (heavy battle damage), Contagion (computer virus) and Disaster (heavy damage from a cosmic string), I think IIRC also Year of Hell, but once again the Voyager in that episode was overall a mess. In many of those cases, staircases and corridors would have been just as vulnerable as a lift system (either turbo or conventional elevator).

Starfleet probably decided that the low risk of failure was outweighed by the system's overall usefulness.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:25 PM   #43
Robert Comsol
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

@ solariabsg25

There was apparently also turbo lift failure below Deck 3 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", forcing Lokai & Bele to make their way down to Deck 5 (at least) by using (unseen) stairways.

I have to concur with Timo. A call to battlestations should restrict the use of turbo lifts to specialists that need longer ways to travel. Probably the crew quarters are arranged in such a fashion that people can reach their duty stations within the minute.

And during the call to abandon the ship it would also seem wise that all crew members know how to get to their designated evacuation transporters without the need of turbo lifts. After all, these might be among the first things to fail during an emergency.

Bob
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Old June 26 2013, 02:00 PM   #44
solariabsg25
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@ solariabsg25

There was apparently also turbo lift failure below Deck 3 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", forcing Lokai & Bele to make their way down to Deck 5 (at least) by using (unseen) stairways.

I have to concur with Timo. A call to battlestations should restrict the use of turbo lifts to specialists that need longer ways to travel. Probably the crew quarters are arranged in such a fashion that people can reach their duty stations within the minute.

And during the call to abandon the ship it would also seem wise that all crew members know how to get to their designated evacuation transporters without the need of turbo lifts. After all, these might be among the first things to fail during an emergency.

Bob
Thanks for that. Still, it would put turbolift failures well below the level of the transporter, or even shields. Probably a less than minimal risk in the eyes of Starfleet.

Red Alert probably does have a "pecking-order" for use of turbolifts, something that would be similar even if they used elevators and ladders. Captain and Main bridge officers, Engineering staff, Tactical/Security, Medical probably being the priority. Then there would be formation of Damage-Control parties at various locations, something probably most crew are trained for.

Maybe there are various damage-control points, where crew not required elsewhere are ordered to assemble at the closest one to their current location, rather than take up valuable time traveling from one end of the ship to the other.

In the case of evacuation, they would definately need to have routes that not only avoided turbolifts, but also provided several alternatives in case of hull breaches, decompression, fires etc. Generations shows us just such an example, where Geordi is forced to use the Jefferies Tubes to make his way to the saucer section. In First Contact, the entire remaining crew are able to evacuate the Enterprise without having to fight their way through Borg-controlled decks.
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Old July 2 2013, 01:31 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: Do turbolifts have any sense?

There was apparently also turbo lift failure below Deck 3 in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", forcing Lokai & Bele to make their way down to Deck 5 (at least) by using (unseen) stairways.
And this, I'd think, would be a "failure" engineered by the Cheronites - or more accurately by Bele, to hinder Lokai's attempt at escaping - as they had amply demonstrated their ability to jam and pervert the starship's systems.

In the case of evacuation, they would definately need to have routes that not only avoided turbolifts, but also provided several alternatives in case of hull breaches, decompression, fires etc. Generations shows us just such an example, where Geordi is forced to use the Jefferies Tubes to make his way to the saucer section. In First Contact, the entire remaining crew are able to evacuate the Enterprise without having to fight their way through Borg-controlled decks.
The tri-ladders of the TOS set probably help with this a lot; going up or down one deck should help clear obstacles such as horizontal turboshafts or local breaches easily enough.

The tri-ladders pose the problem of not having a visible means of being sealed either vertically or horizontally, though. Although there could well be horizontal isolation doors just above and below the sections we see, since the between-decks height on the TOS ship might be considerable. And of course there could be air-containing forcefields, as this technology exists in TOS not long after the TOS events, but those probably don't make for a good "fall-back" safety system as they require at least some power.

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